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Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by jonas21 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @07:33PM (#20763077)
Wyoming gets 7 electoral votes per million people, while New York gets only 1.9.

That's a 3.6x difference -- I would hardly call that a "small" edge.

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by hyperpape on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @07:55PM (#20763236)
True, at that extreme, it's big, and I probably could state my claim more precisely.

Here's my claim: if you drew a curve of electoral votes per person by percentile, there would be a very small area that was significantly elevated, and the remaining portion would be moderately flat.

Because Wyoming's population is so small, the absolute impact isn't that big. Go up just a few spots to Hawaii and it's more like a 2:1 ratio. Yet still, substantially less than 10% of the population lives in such small states. So there's a very small minority of people who have a proportionally larger impact (but still a small impact in absolute terms).

To be clear, I think that's a bad result. So far as the democratic process can allow it, our votes should have equal weight. But it's somewhat exaggerated how systematic of an effect it has. In the same vein, I've argued that the best defense of the electoral college is that it only errs by giving the wrong result in elections that were already very close. In contrast, the Senate is thoroughly anti-democratic, unsalvagably so.

(Btw: I can't replicate your math. New York had 19,378,102 people in 2010, and 29 votes = 1.49 votes / million. Wyoming had 563,626 and 3 votes = 5.32 votes / million).

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by sachdevap on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @10:25PM (#20764062)
To quantify that "very close", in 2016, Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by 3 million votes, which is 1.5% of the voting population. I would not call that very close. It isn't a difference of some 1000 votes. It's an election of a minority leader.
Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by masonic on Thursday August 22, 2019 @06:35AM (#20766532)
Nite that Hew York City alone accounted for more than half of that margin.
Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by newfriend on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @11:39PM (#20764437)
It was an election of a majority leader. The majority of electoral votes were for Donald Trump, by a large margin.

The house is elected by population, the senate by state. The electoral college is designed to be a blend of the house and senate systems.

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by sachdevap on Thursday August 22, 2019 @12:54AM (#20764755)
Well, if we're talking of why electoral college was designed to be this way, then we should read the intention of the founders.

> As Alexander Hamilton writes in “The Federalist Papers,” the Constitution is designed to ensure “that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications.” The point of the Electoral College is to preserve “the sense of the people,” while at the same time ensuring that a president is chosen “by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice.” [0]

Firstly, that has nothing to do with a "blend", and secondly that purpose was far from served. I rest my case.

[0] https://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-reason-for-the-elector...

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by Kerrick on Thursday August 22, 2019 @01:26AM (#20764910)
In those days I don’t think the electoral college members were bound by law to vote for the president that state-run popular votes determine are the state’s choice. Of course the purpose isn’t being served if the men and women of the college aren’t allowed to act on their own.
Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by MertsA on Thursday August 22, 2019 @03:30AM (#20765530)
The original intent wasn't even that the president was democratically elected. In most states today the electoral college members aren't bound by law to vote for the winner of the state's general election. The original intent was that each state government sent their chosen electoral college members and then it was up to them to figure out who to vote for from that point onwards.
Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by your-nanny on Thursday August 22, 2019 @07:25AM (#20766853)
yes. state governments elected Presidents, and that is a good way to avoid populists.
Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by sachdevap on Thursday August 22, 2019 @01:35AM (#20764965)
To be clear, I am not favoring the originalist interpretation. I don't think the founders of the constitution were god-sent. They were smart people, and we can put our own heads to work to create electoral systems congruent with our values.

PS: I like how you said "men and women" there. If we go by the founders, women wouldn't be part of the electoral college.

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by newfriend on Thursday August 22, 2019 @03:39AM (#20765569)
But we aren't talking about why it was designed this way, we are talking about why there are 538 electors, and why the popular vote total doesn't matter at all. The total amount of electors is a sum of the total house reps + total senate -- appears to be a blend of both systems to me.

You said "It's an election of a minority leader.", but that isn't the case by any measure that actually matters, however upsetting it may be for you.

Whatever case you are resting has nothing to do with how many total electors there are, and neither does Hamilton's opinion.

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by greenpizza13 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @03:11PM (#20771406)
You refuse to appreciate the context of his comment. Trump is a minority leader in the context of the popular vote. That's just by definition.

The reason we're not talking about electoral votes is because the discussion revolves around how things would change if we went with the popular vote.

Yes, he got more electoral votes. Many would argue this is a broken system which has fucked our country for the second time in 3 presidents.

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by mvkel on Friday August 23, 2019 @03:33PM (#20781672)
Doesn't that speak more to how divided we are as a country, not some fundamental flaw in the system?
Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by jonas21 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @12:19AM (#20764593)
On one hand, I agree with you that the impact of states with high voting power is somewhat mitigated by the fact that they're small, and the effect of the electoral college only comes into play in elections that are relatively close to begin with.

But on the other hand:

a) All recent presidential elections have been close in popular vote. And as the article points out, two of the last three presidents have won the electoral college while losing the popular vote.

b) Everyone would be appalled by any other large systematic difference in voting power, even if the overall impact was limited. Can you imagine if instead of going by state, we decided to go by income and the top 0.2% of people were given 3.6 votes each? People would lose their minds.

As for the math, I was using electoral votes divided by the voting-age population of each state in the 2010 Census. So, Wyoming is 3 EV / 0.428M = 7.0 EV/M and New York is 29 EV / 15.053M = 1.9 EV/M. If you use total population instead, you get the basically the same ratio (3.55x vs 3.64x).

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by delecti on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @10:24PM (#20764056)
This [1] is population/EC vote rather than EC vote/population, and it's slightly out of order, but it's a steady slope. There's nothing like a normal distribution for people/EC vote ratio. There's just a large range between the power of a California voter and the power of a Wyoming voter. I think this graph shows just how ridiculous this is, Rhode Island voters being inexplicably much less powerful than Connecticut voters, when arguably they're all the same metro with either Boston or NYC, and would thus count as getting just as many "visits" if candidates only visited big population hubs.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_2010_Census_State_Popu...

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by hyperpape on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:49AM (#20767423)
But it’s by state, not by population, so it overstates the import of small states.
Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by zeveb on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:36AM (#20767326)
> In contrast, the Senate is thoroughly anti-democratic, unsalvagably so.

Why is that bad? The Senate represents the states, the other sovereign entities in our federal republic.

I think that a) we should amend the Constitution to eliminate the direct election of Senators and mandating that they be appointed by the state legislatures; b) amend the Constitution to apportion 1 representative per 40,000–60,000 people (yes, this would mean over 6,000 representatives); c) amend the Constitution to mandate a similar structure for the states, with each state legislature required to be bicameral, with senators appointed by the counties and independent cities and representatives elected by the people.

Note that greatly increasing the number of representatives would make the Electoral College much more democratic. I'm not terribly fond of that, but it's a price I'm willing to pay for an overall healthier republic.

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by zeveb on Thursday August 22, 2019 @03:53PM (#20771764)
Do any of the downvoters have a counterargument? I'm genuinely curious.
Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by CompanionCuuube on Friday August 23, 2019 @03:00PM (#20781282)
The downvotes are probably from those who see your proposal as still maintaining the powers of the states. The core dogma behind abolishing the Senate is the removal of the power of the state and placing it all in the population centers.
Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by dmix on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @07:40PM (#20763125)
Those aren't static numbers though. California used to have 4 electoral votes in 1850s (edit) and now they have 55 (Wyoming has always had 3, New York has 29 today down from a peak of 47 in the 1940s).

The ratio of votes per capita is relatively consistent - assuming a baseline level of votes so individual states aren't totally excluded - and is more a sign of a potential problem with the distribution not the system itself. But there's plenty of arguments which favour both ways.

Much like gerrymandering, which both sides have a long legal record of accusing the other of taking advantage of as the last two Supreme Court cases on the matter clearly demonstrates - each by the other, this seems to be a who's on the "winning" side motivation which misses the bigger picture.

In this case it's the smaller states who have been basically given a guaranteed entrance ticket to play the game, which is different than simply giving the state extra votes relative to their size. It functions almost as a social safety net which gives you a shot, not a good shot at that, but only if you'd otherwise have no other shot. If it was only per capita (even with balancing for size) the numbers would look a lot different.

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by jonas21 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @07:54PM (#20763231)
> California used to have 4 electoral votes in 1950s

California had 32 electoral votes in the 1950s. You may have meant the 1850s, when California did have only 4 electoral votes. That's because California was tiny back then, with a population of under 100,000 in 1850.

The electoral votes per capita has always been heavily skewed in favor small states. While it's true that some formerly small states have grown into large states, I don't see how that's relevant.

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by dmix on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @08:13PM (#20763360)
It's relevant because the numbers could be updated, while still giving the smaller states an entry ticket, while eliminating the only valid arguments against the whole policy (high multiples which are completely disconnected from population - not only when necessary, even among the big fast growing states like Texas).

The other stuff about battleground states would have only a small connection to the electoral college, as even the small states would (still) only have a small amounts of votes, and have more to do with regional political trends.

Of course there will be push back from who ever most benefits currently. But I'm sure the political machines will learn to adapt and adjust for their new markets. There will always be enough moderates to swing both ways. Each only has to focus on the important ones, so changing who is important shouldn't hurt the parties unless they don't like having power.

Re 1850, thanks I updated my comment, I should note that doesn't change the fact they're not static.

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by your-nanny on Thursday August 22, 2019 @07:23AM (#20766841)
Wyoming is a state and this country is a union of states, not acres, or arbitrary units of population. We've failed to communicate the actual point of all this, which is to make sure each state--and not population districts--get representation at the federal level. If you have a problem with all this you should be asking: why do we need states?
Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by corebit on Thursday August 22, 2019 @09:25AM (#20767746)
I don't see this point often enough. People just want to do whatever tweak to the system will get them their short term boost and damn the consequences and long-term thinking.
Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by notfromhere on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:10AM (#20768948)
There's a whole body called the Senate that gives small states equal representation. As it stands, the presidency is the only elected federal office where individuals aren't elected by popular choice.
Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by flamingbuffalo on Thursday August 22, 2019 @09:51AM (#20768044)
Wyoming gets 2 senators, same as California - which means their residents get massively MORE representation at the federal level.
Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by your-nanny on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:52AM (#20769446)
Then move to Wyoming.

States are entities of political significance, regardless of how many people happen to live in them. This is a union of states, and states get a say. If you don't believe that consider advocating for the replacement of states with population based administrative districts.

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by greenpizza13 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @03:14PM (#20771425)
> Then move to Wyoming.

This is such an overwhelmingly stupid statement. It's effectively "if you don't like it, then leave."

Wyoming is not as desirable as California in many ways. People don't want to go there. Just because it's not as desirable doesn't mean it should get arbitrary favoritism when it comes to elections.

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by your-nanny on Thursday August 22, 2019 @06:15PM (#20772887)
First off, abide by HN guidelines please.

Second its only your perception that it receives favoritism, because of your mistaken interpretive frame that sees electoral college electors as being about individual citizens instead of as a compromise between two sets of stakeholders: states and the citizens living in them. Until you recognize that states themselves have an interest in Federal elections, you will continue to misunderstand the role the EC plays.

Fairness isn't a simple concept. There can be many mutually incommensurable notions of fairness. Unfortunately, partisans pick and choose those that suit their interests best.

Just as an example from domestic life. Consider a family of 4 individuals with different caloric requirements. One notion of fairness would split a pizza pie into four equal portions, but another would split it in proportion to their caloric needs. Getting everyone to agree on the notion that should be operant is hard because each choice implies winners and losers.

If you don't think states interest in Federal elections shouldn't count for anything, say so, and then give some thought about whether you think states should just be replaced with population based administrative districts that change with the census.

Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by jki275 on Saturday August 24, 2019 @10:21AM (#20787265)
you don’t want to go there, presumably because it’s not politically aligned with your beliefs. Which is exactly how it works.
Re:15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete by abstractbarista on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:11AM (#20767147)
Ahh but WY has 0.577M people while NY has 8.623M! Thus, NY still has more "pull" than WY. Electoral college just helps level the field a bit.