News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by refurb on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @01:39PM (#20697914)
You might want to consider the idea that people who disagree with you politically might in fact not be dumb, but just have views that differ from yours.

Just a thought.

Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by tunesmith on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @01:49PM (#20698040)
Philosophical question - why is that important to know? What added value is discovered by realizing your opponent's conclusion is not based off of bad facts or faulty reasoning, but different values?
Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by NikolaNovak on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @02:20PM (#20698394)
Practical answer - how you engage is radically different.

My math prof likened it to the axiomatic frameworks: if a person has bad facts or faulty reasoning, but your core axioms (values) are similar, you are more likely to come to a point of mutual agreement or at least understanding. If your values (axioms) are radically different, chances are your entire frameworks are different and possibly incompatible. You'll be talking past each other, discussing methods while in fact your goals and assumptions are completely different.

Philosophical answer - depends on your philosophy and how you feel about philosophical zombie - i.e. is it only outward results or internal causes that make a difference to you.

Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by tunesmith on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @02:58PM (#20698797)
Thanks. I'm also toying with the idea that it means that realizing it's about values could possibly engender greater respect for the other's conclusions. Because at least then the person isn't "wrong".

Although maybe that's only true if you find their values tolerable. Otherwise I suppose the advantage is in knowing you'll have to start strategizing if the conclusions from their values are incompatible with yours.

Either way it does seem valuable to know the other person's complete reasoning, just trying to quantify as many reasons why as possible.

Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by refurb on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @02:02PM (#20698208)
How can you fully defend/understand your own beliefs if you don't fully understand your opponents beliefs?

It's pretty arrogant to assume there is only one way to look at things - your way.

Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by tunesmith on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @04:44PM (#20699771)
That is interesting, how does understanding your opponents beliefs make you more fully able to understand your own beliefs? I would think it possible to fully understand one's own argument about something, without understanding all possible counterarguments.
Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by war1025 on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @04:29PM (#20699608)
Because seeing the world differently is different from being malevolent.

If someone is acting malevolently, then you can rationalize basically anything with regards to hurting them or their well-being.

If someone just views the world differently, you will be annoyed by them, but probably not able to rationalize to yourself that they should not exist.

Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by AlexCoventry on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @01:55PM (#20698110)
It makes you more persuasive. You can align your arguments to their values.
Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by eclipxe on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @04:38PM (#20699696)
What if they have no values/their views are not based in anything rational or rooted in fact?
Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by tunesmith on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @04:43PM (#20699746)
I think the part after your slash is a different case than them having correct facts and reasoning, just with different values. In your after-slash case they are "wrong". You're looking at how to have them accept facts and correct their reasoning.

The first part is interesting, but ultimately, if their conclusions were based only on facts and reasoning, their conclusions would only be limited to the area of facts, "is" statements. They would not be able to derive ought/should statements. (If you believe in Hume's Guillotine.)

Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by NikolaNovak on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @01:55PM (#20698116)
Not the OP, but while I'll agree with your sentiment in general, it's a bit straw man argument in this particular case.

I'm generally of liberal persuasion. I did not agree with almost anything that our Canadian previous conservative prime minister did... but I respected him. I thought he was intelligent, effective, and thoughtful. I didn't like that he was effective and productive about things I disagreed with, but I'd shake his hand and I can imagine having a thoughtful conversation and learning something, even if my mind may or may not be changed.

On the other hand, in theory, I "agree" with many of the things Michael Moore for example is fighting for. But I do not respect him, and I cannot watch more than 2 minutes of his programs before wanting to yell at the TV. Certainly, I wouldn't elect him. He is a propagandist, he cherry picks data, and presents a skewed picture. Ann Coulter or Glenn Beck or Michael Moore or Al Franken (the pundit; he may or may not have been more honest as a politician, but his prior books were awful) - it's not a matter of how much I agree with them, but that I find them all fundamentally dishonest.

Which brings us to Trump - my biggest concern is not that I disagree with him (which I do). It's that I have no respect for his mental faculties, honesty, abilities, consistency, beliefs, values, thoughtfulness, or any of the characteristics some of us believe a head of state should have. Further, I think not only is he doing a disfavour for those who disagree with him, I think he's doing a disfavour for those who agree with him / voted for him.

At the end of the day, I may disagree with somebody about what's the best colour to paint the room; I may disagree with somebody on what the best way to fix a education system is, or even what its goals should be; I may disagree on budget priorities, on a country's role in the world, and so on. There's fascinating discussion, debate and learning to be had with people of opposing opinions.

But if somebody wants to buy a bridge somebody's selling them, enroll in a cult, or jump out of an airplane without a parachute thinking it'll end well for them, dunno... I don't think it's in the "difference of opinion" category :|

Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by specialist on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @02:58PM (#20698787)
I now doubt IQ, values, beliefs are even a factor.

A relation of mine went from studying marine biology to full on fundie. Creationism, climate denial, etc. Huge Trump supporter too, of course.

Can any one explain to me how a one time scientist now doubts evolution?

Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by watersb on Thursday August 15, 2019 @01:12AM (#20702746)
Intelligence amplifies a person's ability to construct a narrative that feels like a good fit to lived experience.

Complicated plot. It's all interconnected...

Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by asdf21 on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @05:42PM (#20700265)
It's a belief system that is naturally selected for, for one thing.

How many liberal atheists do you know with 4+ kids, versus conservatives?

Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by redler on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @06:07PM (#20700516)
Ah yes, the Idiocracy[1] effect.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by asdf21 on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @06:23PM (#20700658)
is being a genetic dead end really all that smart though?
Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by AlexCoventry on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @10:54PM (#20702209)
Species evolve into local optima all the time. Clonal reproduction is a common evolutionary dead end.
Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by yourbandsucks on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @01:44PM (#20697979)
OP is talking about a public figure, not an ideology or policy.
Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by refurb on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @02:03PM (#20698223)
WRT to the votes he did get, it's pretty obvious- people dumber than he is, who are apparently blind to seeing his completely obvious con artist act and voting for him, that's how.
Re:Yield Curves Invert in U.S., U.K by yourbandsucks on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @02:53PM (#20698729)
Talking about people's opinions of an individual, not of a policy...