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Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by lukifer on Monday August 12, 2019 @12:34PM (#20677013)
> Later, [GM] found some success with the Chevy Volt, a plug-in hybrid that runs on electric power but also has a backup gas engine. The car was too expensive, though...

As a happy Volt owner (I've yet to met one who didn't love theirs), I can't help but wonder if "expensive" is code for "lost service revenue because the thing is too dang low maintenance and reliable". ;)

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by btilly on Monday August 12, 2019 @12:49PM (#20677237)
No. Expensive is code for, "We lost money selling them, and only bothered because we got tax write-offs."

In short, expensive means expensive. They cost a lot to make.

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by jseliger on Monday August 12, 2019 @12:53PM (#20677269)
The Volt was also conceived in the late 2000s when gas prices were high. It was partially a hedge against skyrocketing gas prices. Between the first major oil price crisis in the '70s and today, people reliably buy bigger, more polluting cars when oil is cheap and smaller, less polluting cars when oil is expensive.

Fracking may have semi-permanently put a cap on the cost of oil, which is horrific from a global warming standpoint but does seem to have altered what cars most people purchase.

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by nradov on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:58PM (#20678062)
The Volt also had the wrong body style based on changing consumer preferences. If GM had put the Voltec drive train in a compact SUV it probably would have sold better.
Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by degenerate on Monday August 12, 2019 @04:53PM (#20679879)
I firmly believe this was done on purpose. They knew what they were doing by making it look like a tonka toy. EVs were just a write-off attempt by GM that didn't get the gov backing they wanted, so they made sure production remained low by making the cars hideous.
Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by nradov on Monday August 12, 2019 @05:26PM (#20680196)
That seems unlikely considering how much engineering effort GM put into the Volt. It wasn't just a compliance car, at least not at first. If they expected it to fail they would have minimized that investment and half-assed it.

When GM started Volt development in about 2006, sedans were still popular and the Toyota Prius was selling relatively well. So I think GM just failed to anticipate the market shift.

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by btilly on Monday August 12, 2019 @08:32PM (#20681634)
It actually wasn't just a compliance car, but they knew up front that it would fail.

About 20 years ago, the classic The Innovator's Dilemma came out. Included was a chapter based on a report the author had done for the auto industry back in the 1990s. On existing technology curves he found that mass market electric cars for the American model should become commercially viable around 2020, and in the next several years after that would become dominant. Until then it was a bad business to be in, and after that success was imperative for any car manufacturer that wants to remain in business.

The same author in that book and its follow-up The Innovator's Solution said that conventional car manufacturers would come up with hybrid cars first, but that route would lose to fully electric. Exactly how sailing ship companies came up with hybrid steam/sailing ships (go under steam for short trips, and you have sails if you run out of coal on a long trip), but all manufacturers who invested in that lost.

GM's actions show that they understood a lot of the message of those books. They worked on hybrid cars once that was commercially feasible, and put in the effort to figure out how to make good electric cars. They did this knowing that the technology wasn't yet commercially viable. They have declared that their future is electric only, and are explicitly avoiding committing to the tempting hybrid mistake.

That said, it remains to be seen whether they are committing another mistake pointed out in The Innovator's Solution. Which is that they are trying to make the switch without doing it as a spinoff, without separating the companies, and trying to leverage existing dealer networks. Which opens them to the problem that dealers have come to expect maintenance costs as a big part of their profit model, and therefore will try to steer customers away from electric, or will try to charge extra to stay in business. If GM can't resolve this conflict, they will fail.

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by Shivetya on Monday August 12, 2019 @03:24PM (#20678939)
in effect, when the ZEV credit rules changed so GM which has a ZEV credit printer in the Bolt no longer needed the Volt and this also coincided with their decision to drop the Cruze and other smaller sedans. From 2018 and onward the credit a PHEV could get is sufficiently lower than before.[1]

GM rushed the Bolt out because also ending in 2017 were two ZEV related credit (CARB credits by another name) traits that were easily exploited, banking them for future use and double dipping by getting credit in a non CARB state for a sale there plus the CARB credit.

The key thing to note about EV sales, how to tell if a manufacturer is serious about selling them. The common figure of twenty to twenty five thousand units is bandied about as where the CARB value falls off after. As in, selling into that maximum allows GM and others to exploit the credit system to the extent it covers all possible sales for their other vehicles. This number will slowly increase but when they say "we cannot sell more because we cannot get batteries" don't believe them

[1] https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/california-and-western...

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by microcolonel on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:15PM (#20677515)
Although technology has taken huge leaps, particularly in the specific energy of batteries and combustion engines, after the 2000 Honda Insight, the first new model car (in Canada) to match or exceed the Insight's efficiency came in 2017(!) with the Hyundai Ioniq.

From my perspective, energy prices and auto regulations are the biggest reasons it took that long.

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by Nasrudith on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:09PM (#20677452)
Isn't that also a bit tautological given how fixed costs are divided over units produced? If they produced and sold more they would be cheaper. Of course that assumes they would sell well if they put more effort into doing so.
Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by freehunter on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:33PM (#20677759)
That works if they're losing money due to not selling enough volume to recoup the startup costs. However if they're actually selling them for less money than they cost to make, every unit sold is just adding to the loss.

If it costs $1,000,000 to design a car and I sell that car for $30,000 and I sell 33 cars, I've lost $10k. But just selling one more car will turn a profit.

On the other hand if that car costs $32,000 to make and I'm selling it for $30,000... GM has long been in the business, for whatever reason, of selling cars below cost [1]. And for the Volt, it's more like selling a $40k car that actually costs $80k to manufacture [2], not even taking engineering and marketing costs as a factor.

Selling more Bolts and Volts would hurt GM, not help.

[1] https://www.hotcars.com/gm-admits-bolt-not-profitable/

[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/michelinemaynard/2012/09/10/stu...

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by chrisbolt on Monday August 12, 2019 @02:48PM (#20678554)
> not even taking engineering and marketing costs as a factor.

It looks like engineering is included as "Development" in the original report: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-generalmotors-volt/factbo...

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by bilbo0s on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:23PM (#20677616)
>Of course that assumes they would sell well if they put more effort into doing so...

And there's the rub. People say they want these things, but when it comes time to open the pocketbook, their calculations change. Worst thing is that the people who can afford this stuff will instead drop more money on an ICE SUV.

:(

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by kube-system on Monday August 12, 2019 @02:01PM (#20678095)
Did they mean expensive to produce, or an expensive price tag (or both)? The Volt was a good car, but it was a $17,000 premium over something like the Prius when it launched. Even with price cuts for later model years, it was still not an easy sell for a buyer focused on economy.

I think it would have sold a lot better if they had positioned it as a more upscale vehicle to match the asking price, or at least had given it some other value proposition beyond economy. I've never been able to figure out exactly who the target market for the Volt was.

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by maxerickson on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @09:25AM (#20685559)
Government incentives and fleet standards.
Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by cowmix on Monday August 12, 2019 @12:36PM (#20677037)
My 2013 Volt is 107K (85K EV miles) strong. Almost ZERO maintenance costs.
Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by Mathnerd314 on Monday August 12, 2019 @12:57PM (#20677335)
It sounds like the production cost was too high, probably also because of the lithium-ion batteries: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chevy-volt-discontinued-chevrol...

> "While it was a financial loser, it did what was intended," said retired GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz, who shepherded the Volt into production. "We viewed it as a stepping stone to full electrics, which were totally out of reach due to the then-astronomical cost of lithium-ion batteries."

> GM needed to stop making it due in part to changing consumer preferences for SUVs, he said. The company also lost money on every Volt, cash that is needed for research on autonomous vehicles and more advanced electric cars, he said.

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by ilyaeck on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:40PM (#20677838)
Yes, one of the nicest cars I ever owned. I am about to reach the end of my 3 year lease and would get another Volt in a heartbeat if that was an option.
Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by hnModsRDanger on Monday August 12, 2019 @12:47PM (#20677208)
As someone in automotive, if anything breaks on your car, it's worst case scenario.

In 2019, people don't want their cars to break at all. Even a trivial matter might have you lose a customer.

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by MegaButts on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:05PM (#20677416)
Are you a product manager, a marketer, an accountant, an engineer, or what? I've often been surprised to find out how the sausage is made in most businesses where I quickly learned making the best product is rarely a goal (and sometimes this is actually the right decision since you should focus on "good enough" for most applications) and that planned obsolescence is a real thing. In the case of autos, many of the dealerships in the US make most of their money on maintenance. And the dealerships have a lot of influence on what cars sell and what should be sold by their respective motherships.
Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by ecpottinger on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:24PM (#20677630)
All I can say, as a person who has been interested in electric cars for some time, when I went to my local GM dealer I was surprised at how much lies he used to try and discourage me from buying a Bolt.

Worse, when he started saying there were no local charger available he refuse to do a web search to prove his point since the last time I looked there were plenty available locally.

I just walked out, on the other hand I could have bought the car CASH if he had not lied.

The dealers are more than 50% of the problem!

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by happycube on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:58PM (#20678067)
That kinda dealer/salesman would've hated you for paying cash as well...
Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by MegaButts on Monday August 12, 2019 @02:30PM (#20678382)
Luckily this is very easy to circumvent. Just agree to whatever financing terms they offer, negotiate on the sale price, then pay off the car ASAP. You'll likely save several thousand dollars (depends on the car and new vs used) and, at most, pay a couple hundred dollars in interest. It usually ends up being less than a hundred but obviously each contract is different.
Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by hnModsRDanger on Monday August 12, 2019 @02:30PM (#20678375)
There is definitely no planned obsolescence.

There are specifications. We don't buy overkill material.

At worst, we stop tracking issues of they are too old, like after 5 years of use.

Edit, due to HN limits. The person below me doesn't understand engineering and how specs work. You make your product at specific costs and quality. Not everything can be made out of titanium.

Re:GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles by MegaButts on Monday August 12, 2019 @02:36PM (#20678425)
I'm guessing you're an engineer (please correct me if I'm wrong). And what you're effectively saying is cars aren't designed to last longer than their warranties, and in fact you don't even have data on what happens afterwards. It sounds like you're passively participating in obsolescence, even if it's not intentional. Apart from that, the people actually selling the cars absolutely have a financial incentive for the cars to fail as soon as the warranties are up, which is conveniently when you stop looking at the data.