News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by thatfrenchguy on Sunday August 11, 2019 @04:12PM (#20670172)
For the sake of all the great skilled people from India who have been on H1B for decades, Congress really need to fix the green card attribution problem: there’s no reason why a person born in India has to wait 10 years to get a green card when a French person can have one in 18-36 months.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by refurb on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:23PM (#20670613)
Sure there is a reason - diversity. The “no country can get more than 5% of immigrant visa in any given year”, was done so that large countries don’t dominate the immigrant mix.

Same reason you can’t get a green card through the lottery if your from Canada - it’s only open to under-represented countries.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by whatshisface on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:50PM (#20670763)
Is there any reason why you would want diversity? On its face Indians wouldn't be less valuable per capita than inhabitants of some small Pacific island just because there are more Indians alive. In fact if you believe in normal distributions then the best Indians would be better than almost any other country because there are more Indians to draw from.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by dmaldona on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:00PM (#20671343)
Yes,

If you only receive immigration from only one country, it is easier for these newcomers to associate and become a political force that can change your status quo. Whereas if immigration is diverse, this situation is more complicated.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by duckfruit on Sunday August 11, 2019 @09:24PM (#20671709)
I don't think this comment deserves to be dismissed so readily. Although I shudder to think about the xenophobia that could potentially motivate thinking along these lines, it is very much a fact that plenty of people have such concerns, and as such it is an important reason to enact barriers and one that I hadn't thought of before.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by umvi on Sunday August 11, 2019 @10:08PM (#20671891)
Are there any historical examples of large numbers of immigrants politically changing the country they immigrated to?
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by masonic on Monday August 12, 2019 @03:42AM (#20673341)
Every country in the Western hemisphere? India/Pakistan until the mid-20th century and under earlier Muslim rule? The entire Mediterranean under Rome? China after Khan?
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by selimthegrim on Monday August 12, 2019 @04:08AM (#20673462)
This reminds me of an episode during my senior year of high school Model UN where a hapless delegate for Germany in the security council stood up and started on with a straight face "Germany has never invaded another country..." before being drowned out by peals of laughter and sitting down red-faced.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by whatshisface on Monday August 12, 2019 @09:22AM (#20675146)
Umvi wasn't claiming that there were no examples, they were asking for examples.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by cvwright on Sunday August 11, 2019 @11:16PM (#20672104)
Hawaii. Texas.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by kthejoker2 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @11:27PM (#20672155)
Texas Revolution?
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by SlayAe on Monday August 12, 2019 @06:15AM (#20674065)
Israël?
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by SmellyGeekBoy on Monday August 12, 2019 @05:39AM (#20673888)
The USA?
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by refurb on Monday August 12, 2019 @10:56AM (#20675958)
All of South America?
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by cardiffspaceman on Monday August 12, 2019 @03:40PM (#20679131)
>Hawaii

>Texas

>USA

>All of South America?

All of the Americas?

That sort of thing could honestly be in the minds of the Powers that Be.

The positive spin for diversity in where your immigrants come from is that it is better for the culture if the participants have diverse backgrounds.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by siphon22 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @06:49PM (#20671052)
Even if you're right, I don't think people want a system that benefits a group of people just because they have a bigger population than others. It's the same reason why diversity quotas are pushed for, because we can't have companies only hiring or promoting into leadership positions people who happen to look like them. It is in line with those principles that we would not want to have a system where Indians are being severely advantaged compared to other minorities just because they have a huge population.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by belltaco on Sunday August 11, 2019 @11:50PM (#20672263)
>Even if you're right, I don't think people want a system that benefits a group of people just because they have a bigger population than others.

This does not make much sense. People get green cards, not countries. Imagine if you were at the DMV and each region of your city had its own queue. People coming from the smaller parts leave in 5 minutes, and people hailing from the larger parts have to wait 8 hours for their turn. It's their fault for living in a more populous place?

What did the people in the smaller areas do to deserve their faster queue compared to others, except being born at a certain place?

Work visas should be about the person who passes the interview, is selected and is able to hold said job.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by siphon22 on Monday August 12, 2019 @12:19AM (#20672390)
That sounds nice and all but the DMV analogy does not hold up. Think about if there were no limits by country population, India has more people and therefore the most applicants, so we would be mainly giving limited numbers of work visas to Indians while others would have no chance.

Imagine if there was a company with a white CEO who was only hiring/putting other whites into high level positions because they happen to be in a majority white area. If that makes you cringe, you should have the same reaction regarding this.

Diversity = various countries/peoples around the world getting a fair chance

Not diversity = Only Indians get work visas

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by whatshisface on Monday August 12, 2019 @12:32AM (#20672431)
>a white CEO who was only hiring/putting other whites into high level positions because they happen to be in a majority white area

If 90% of a town is white and 10% is black, 9:1 is a fair ratio for executive boards on average. Anything else would mean that the probability of a person holding a board position given their race would be different for different races. Imagine if every company in Mombasa was required to have an even split between white and black: being born white would guarantee you any job you wanted because you would be competing with less than 1% of the population, while in contrast every other ethnicity would be crowded in to half the number of jobs. In fact if racial quotas were instituted in Kenya and every race was given the same percent quota, 98% of Kenyans would be forced to be unemployed.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by siphon22 on Monday August 12, 2019 @12:41AM (#20672469)
By all means you're right and I would agree. It's just that, if we are going to go with the diversity thing, we should uphold it equally and fairly. There is no avoiding natural majorities where we can't help it. But in the realm of green cards and work visas where they are limited and we CAN help it, I think avoiding incentivizing or allowing for majorities to form that will become problematic(and then too big to be helped later on) is a good thing.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by pkaye on Sunday August 11, 2019 @06:03PM (#20670836)
> Is there any reason why you would want diversity?

Diversity is generally considered a positive thing for companies and countries. Also there have been complaints that US is poaching the best people from other countries so diversity helps moderate that.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by whatshisface on Sunday August 11, 2019 @06:21PM (#20670924)
>Also there have been complaints that US is poaching the best people from other countries so diversity helps moderate that.

The US sets US law to serve US interests, so I don't see how that would be a motivation.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by diebeforei485 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:24PM (#20671445)
Diversity in the green card pool is not the same as diversity of who lives in the country or works at a company.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by screye on Sunday August 11, 2019 @06:03PM (#20670832)
This underlies an assumption that the people from one country are generally homogeneous.

India is easily the most internally diverse country in the world. There is also the fact, that literally 15% of the world's population resides here.

The current "diversity" heuristic is too naive to promote any real diversity.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by shados on Sunday August 11, 2019 @07:13PM (#20671141)
Maybe, maybe not, but thats a different battle altogether, and right now a huge portion of American politics revolve around this definition of diversity, and if it didn't, it's likely immigration would get stricter, not looser.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by ramraj07 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @07:08PM (#20671126)
I'm Indian and I find that claim hard to believe. Countries like the United States and Canada are far more heterogenous, unless you want to say everyone who speaks a different language is different in any way other than the language (mostly not;).
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by petilon on Sunday August 11, 2019 @07:51PM (#20671297)
It is not just language. It is skin color (some are fair skinned like Europeans, some are dark skinned like Africans), food (North and South Indian food are very different), clothes, religion (which is very important in India), income levels (extreme poverty as well as extreme wealth), education (most of the country is illiterate, but there also world-class institutions such as IITs, culture (India has higher female participation in the workforce, in IT at least, that the US, yet, in certain villages there is "honor killings" and so on.) Yes, India is absolutely the most diverse country in the world, and it is many times more diverse than the US.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by webgoat on Sunday August 11, 2019 @09:34PM (#20671747)
Double bell curves != diversity
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by diebeforei485 on Monday August 12, 2019 @03:51AM (#20673385)
Country caps are based on country of birth (with some exceptions that don't apply to most people). From that standpoint, US-born people are actually very heterogenous relative to other large countries, and the same applies to Canada-born people.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by belltaco on Sunday August 11, 2019 @11:54PM (#20672282)
Why do you think India is called a subcontinent?

>Countries like the United States and Canada are far more heterogenous

That's only in the media and big cities.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by dragonwriter on Sunday August 11, 2019 @07:12PM (#20671139)
> The “no country can get more than 5% of immigrant visa in any given year”, was done so that large countries don’t dominate the immigrant mix.

It was done so that countries with large numbers of eligible immigrants don't dominate the immigrant mix in any category (it's per category, not global), which is a really stupid idea (it systematically prevents legal supply and demand from aligning, even as far as they could within the aggregate limit, by artificial restriction, which as anyone whose studied price controls know, creates illegality.)

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by refurb on Sunday August 11, 2019 @07:33PM (#20671230)
Supply and demand? I don’t think are many people that think who should immigrate to the US should happen the same way people buy cars or other consumer goods.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by devdas on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @01:37AM (#20683061)
It was a more subtle way of restricting immigration from "undesirable" countries.

https://scholars.org/brief/how-legacies-racism-persist-us-im...

US immigration law has always been racist.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by hamstergene on Sunday August 11, 2019 @10:31PM (#20671960)
Compare number of applicants per year from India (250K H1 + some amount L1) to the green card caps (140K). And their population growth is still positive (>1% year).

Even if Congress kicks out all the rest of nationalities and gives 100% cap to Indians, the wait times will drop only once but then keep growing indefinitely. (And this does not yet account to how many more will be inspired by that, as right now long wait times presumably deter a lot from even trying.)

There is no fix for this that does not involve a huge lot of Indians failing at their immigration attempt. The core problem is that they are just trying too hard: India applies 8.5x more people per %population than France, 14x more than Germany etc. No Congress can fix that.

Sure, 7% cap for a country that makes 17% of the world seems a bit unfair. But increasing it to the fair 17% or even to unfair 100% will still be peanuts in the long run. The reality is that a person born in India is being screwed not as much by bias in immigration policies but only by other persons born in India.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by belltaco on Monday August 12, 2019 @12:26AM (#20672412)
>Compare number of applicants per year from India (250K H1 + some amount L1) to the green card caps (140K). And their population growth is still positive (>1% year).

This is not correct. The 250k includes people who got their first H1B in 2006 till date but have to renew every 3 years. Those are work visa renewals while they wait. The yearly demand is much lower. There is a 85K cap on all new H1Bs. Only 70% go to tech sector. However some governments and nonprofits are excluded from the cap, but the nowhere as high as 250k. Which is why the rest of your comment is wrong.

>Even if Congress kicks out all the rest of nationalities and gives 100% cap to Indians, the wait times will drop only once but then keep growing indefinitely. (And this does not yet account to how many more will be inspired by that, as right now long wait times presumably deter a lot from even trying.)

>There is no fix for this that does not involve a huge lot of Indians failing at their immigration attempt. The core problem is that they are just trying too hard: India applies 8.5x more people per %population than France, 14x more than Germany etc. No Congress can fix that.

Not true again. After 8 to 10 years it will fix itself because the system is first come first served. i.e If a French or German person apply on January 1 2029, they will get their GC before everyone from India that applied after Jan 1 2029.

Actually that would be true even today if the law passes. The French citizen who applies on Jan 1 2020 will get his gc before the Indian citizen who applies on Jan 2, 2020. It's just that if the law passes, they won't get to cut ahead to directly in front of the line, before people waiting since 2009.

It's like going to a DMV. Regardless of how bad the crowd is or where you drove from, you get a token number and no one that came after you gets a GC before you can. The initial wait for some will be high initially because there are people waiting for a long time.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by hamstergene on Monday August 12, 2019 @03:00AM (#20673108)
> After 8 to 10 years it will fix itself

100% of the total cap is used every year. The cap is not changing, the number of applicants is not changing (grows, actually), so the backlog will keep growing with no change at all. How exactly the cap is allocated to nationalities is irrelevant.

You can write a simple simulation of a DMV office that gets more new people every day than it can serve per day, and prove that the line grows indefinitely regardless if it's FIFO or capped or whatever.

The only true fix to the indefinite growth of wait time is to change the spammable lottery/FIFO system to something like merit-based (like Canada) or salary auction, which grants all the cap to highest scored people and rejects everyone else.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by diebeforei485 on Monday August 12, 2019 @05:09AM (#20673747)
> How exactly the cap is allocated to nationalities is irrelevant.

It's very relevant actually. It drives hiring decisions - plenty of reasons to hire people born in India (and to some extent China) because they won't get full employment rights for a long time. And this has a feedback loop (the longer the wait time for some people, the greater the incentive to seek and hire those people). This is actually bad for people born anywhere else and want to find a job here, including US-born.

There can be no "true fix" because the legislative process involves compromise. There was plenty of criticism of the 2013 Senate bill (S. 744) for example. Perhaps there will be another such attempt a decade from now, but it's stupid to wait for speculative future compromises instead of fixing one issue at a time.

In any case, fixing the country cap issue is not incompatible with any of the points based proposals - AFAIK Canada does not make people wait longer based on where they were born.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by top256 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:27PM (#20670641)
This has been fixed. French people won't get any new green cards.

https://www.sanjoseinside.com/2019/08/07/house-passes-zoe-lo...

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by notabot on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:51PM (#20670767)
This is such a terrible "fix".

“For the next 10 years, more than 90 percent of the employment-based green card will go to citizens of one country”

This is so unfair to citizens of other countries.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Indian immigrants. What they've been through is not tenable in the slightest. I think lifting the cap all together will be a better solution for everyone?

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by stale2002 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @10:05PM (#20671878)
What? This fix literally makes everyone equal.

Why should a person get priority just because they are from a certain country?

Instead, everyone should be treated exactly the same.

There is a saying about how treating people equally, looks like oppression to the people who were at the top before.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by notabot on Monday August 12, 2019 @02:54AM (#20673077)
You made too many assumptions about me. I'm not at the top. I'm not even from the US.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by belltaco on Sunday August 11, 2019 @11:58PM (#20672297)
>This is so unfair to citizens of other countries.

Not sure how it's unfair. The bill has a clause that anyone currently waiting will not be impacted.

>I think lifting the cap all together will be a better solution for everyone?

Not sure if you're serious. Even adding a few new green cards is politically impossible in the current climate. Just imagine the attack ads on TV for the next election.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by notabot on Monday August 12, 2019 @02:48AM (#20673040)
Yes. I'm at least half serious.

    1. The system is unfair in the first place -- Indian's quota is not in proportion to their population.

    2. The bill tries to flush the queue, that leads to:

        2.1 The perpetuation of this unfair system.

        2.2 Other people who will still use this system get unfairly treated.
So I don't think this is a proper solution to this issue. If US really wants all the best and brightest, the cap should be lifted.
Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by dmaldona on Sunday August 11, 2019 @06:03PM (#20670837)
I wish is not passed. But seems to have a lot of support:

https://www.lanereport.com/115492/2019/07/the-bottom-line-bu...

Really wonder who thought this was a great idea.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by damnyou on Sunday August 11, 2019 @07:26PM (#20671197)
In a zero-sum situation, it is important to have an equitable distribution of pain.

Of course the cap should be abolished altogether, but while it exists the system is deeply unjust.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by belltaco on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:40PM (#20670706)
It's nowhere close to actually becoming law.

The El Paso shooter mentioned that proposed law in his manifesto as letting in many more new foreign workers after listening to fake news from Fox News and Breitbart, when it does nothing of that sort. Also that the Senate passed it.

The last thing we want is more bad information.

Re:Denial of H1-B visas to India’s largest IT services expor... by digianarchist on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:39PM (#20670702)
Erm the House passed the bill but it's unlikely to pass the Senate and even if it did I'd expect Trump to veto it.