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Re:Who Owns Huawei? by smacktoward on Friday August 09, 2019 @07:56PM (#20659209)
I've heard a similar observation phrased slightly differently to describe Russia. If you're looking at a large Russian company, it goes, you're by definition looking at a company that has come to some kind of accommodation with the state -- because if they hadn't, the state would never have permitted them to get large.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by lowdose on Friday August 09, 2019 @08:07PM (#20659263)
On the surface these state owned operations look similar but the results speak to the contrary. I think Chinese corporations behave more like a beehive and Russians like a wolf pack. The Kremlin chased out a lot Russians with academic papers. China on the other hand seems to be the place that facilitates the best startup opportunities.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by 4ntonius8lock on Friday August 09, 2019 @08:59PM (#20659492)
This makes sense. Russian economy is much less dependent on talented work force, they have vast resources in proportion to their population.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by lowdose on Friday August 09, 2019 @09:09PM (#20659524)
If 3 million people with a master / Phd move out, your economy takes hit especially when the country's GDP is below the level of Italy.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by cbHXBY1D on Friday August 09, 2019 @11:49PM (#20660028)
> I think Chinese corporations behave more like a beehive and Russians like a wolf pack.

This is an old orientalist trope.

Re:Who Owns Huawei? by lowdose on Saturday August 10, 2019 @09:59AM (#20662059)
Do you have a reference for this? I'm the last to say this is an original idea and would like to read more about this.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by est31 on Friday August 09, 2019 @09:07PM (#20659518)
And if you fall out of favour, your company gets taken away from you. See Khodorkovsky as an example.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by bitL on Friday August 09, 2019 @09:34PM (#20659609)
Wasn't it more like "if you try to subvert current power and install your own puppets, all using money you stole with the help of current power"? I think in China they shot such people. In US/EU that would land such person on a few blacklists instead and certain portions of business would be hard to do.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by LegitShady on Friday August 09, 2019 @10:14PM (#20659746)
They might become secretary of state tho
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by bitL on Friday August 09, 2019 @10:44PM (#20659828)
If they win; in the aforementioned example that person lost. I never understood why should I feel any sympathies to either crook just because certain powers used them for their own purposes.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by LegitShady on Saturday August 10, 2019 @12:22AM (#20660148)
they did become secretary of state, and many shady situations and abuse of power appear to have happened. I am inclined to believe the intelligence apparatus was turned against their political opponents unethically and perhaps illegally. They succeeded in this and so far they have gotten away with it.

Bill Barr has had the ability to declassify for 80 days, nothing yet. I expect nothing but covering up for the DoJ and Wray's FBI.

Re:Who Owns Huawei? by RavlaAlvar on Friday August 09, 2019 @10:04PM (#20659711)
Also, see Alibaba
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by joejerryronnie on Saturday August 10, 2019 @12:06AM (#20660083)
Absolutely correct. Jack Ma was smart enough to realize he had amassed too much wealth, power, and influence to remain in the good graces of The Party. He was, essentially, one step ahead of the firing squad (or at least a major state contrived scandal which would land him in jail for a decade).

This seems to be the opposite of the US system where, once you amass that amount of wealth, power, and influence, you get to control the major political parties.

Re:Who Owns Huawei? by philwelch on Friday August 09, 2019 @08:50PM (#20659463)
Russia, according to famed Russian dissident Garry Kasparov, operates this way more as a mafia syndicate. Corruption allows the “oligarchs” to enrich themselves with the nation’s mineral resources so long as some of their power (and even money) remains at the beck and call of the don: Putin.

China is different. It’s not an oil and gas oligarchy like Russia or the Gulf states. It is somewhat like the US was during the Second World War—somewhat capitalist in form but almost entirely geared toward the strategic goals of the country, as dictated by the government. The main exceptions are that the US had elections intermittently and that the US was in the midst of total war. China isn’t at war though—it’s just a totalitarian society.

Re:Who Owns Huawei? by jtsnow on Friday August 09, 2019 @09:18PM (#20659556)
Or as Bill Browser described it:

"This whole exercise was teaching me that Russian business culture is closer to that of a prison yard than anything else. In prison, all you have is your reputation. Your position is hard-earned and it is not relinquished easily. When someone is crossing the yard coming for you, you cannot stand idly by. You have to kill him before he kills you. If you don’t, and if you manage to survive the attack, you’ll be deemed weak"

Re:Who Owns Huawei? by bitL on Saturday August 10, 2019 @12:24AM (#20660151)
In Russia a theft of a company comes immediately after the initial start-up phase is over and company starts to post profits. Immediately noticed by tax office, groups of lawyers zero in and simply take it away from the owner. I was told about such an example from one high-profile Russian who escaped to keep his company alive. US entrepreneurs in China had similar experience; once company took off, they had to "share the technology" with some state companies that then produced the same thing cheaper and knocked the original company out. Kleptocracy is a proper term for both.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by antpls on Saturday August 10, 2019 @02:02AM (#20660474)
> once company took off, they had to "share the technology" with some state companies that then produced the same thing cheaper and knocked the original company out.

Without knowing the details, this sounds more efficient and potentially fairer for the society. It allows for information and innovation to flow in the industry, rather than a single company making absurd amount of money only because they can keep it secret.

It doesn't mean wealth is automatically better distributed, but it could help.

Re:Who Owns Huawei? by bitL on Saturday August 10, 2019 @03:57AM (#20660796)
In general, this tends to kill innovation as nobody bothers starting anything new (no rewards, instead punishment for success).
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by tepidandroid on Saturday August 10, 2019 @11:55AM (#20662738)
I’d say there are pros and cons. One consequence of lax IP laws is that competitors will rapidly converge on the same set of popular product features. When everyone has the same set of features, innovation and the ability to distinguish oneself from the competition becomes a matter of life and death. Resting on one's laurels behind a warchest of patents is not an option.

This is particularly true of a playing field as large and as cutthroat as China, where at any given time there are thousands of competitors jostling for dominance of even the most minuscule of niches.

Re:Who Owns Huawei? by SEJeff on Friday August 09, 2019 @09:05PM (#20659512)
On Russia, Bill Browder's book Red Notice does an exceptional job of going into detail describing what you mention. It is really quite special.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by sharadov on Friday August 09, 2019 @10:16PM (#20659752)
You're dead on in your assessment of them.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by smacktoward on Friday August 09, 2019 @09:02PM (#20659504)
> China isn’t at war though

Yet.

Re:Who Owns Huawei? by philwelch on Friday August 09, 2019 @09:31PM (#20659594)
Maybe they’ve been at Cold War for decades but nobody else noticed.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by seppin on Saturday August 10, 2019 @05:28AM (#20661071)
Considering the constant attacks and theft over the last 50 years, wars have been fought over less.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by baddox on Friday August 09, 2019 @10:32PM (#20659789)
So it’s claimed true for Russia and China. So what are the odds that it turns out it’s true of the United States too, and maybe it’s just easier for me to accept the other accusations based on brief HN comments simply because I’m from the United States and I’m used to hearing Russia and China described as enemies or opponents of the US?
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by alexashka on Friday August 09, 2019 @11:25PM (#20659944)
I fail to see how this would by definition, not be true, in any country with any form of government.

Any entity that wields power, is a potential threat to a monopoly power holder (the state), and as a result, has to be collaborated with, or fought against.

Re:Who Owns Huawei? by closeparen on Saturday August 10, 2019 @01:17AM (#20660329)
What kind of accommodation? Most places have regulations and taxes.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by all_usernames on Friday August 09, 2019 @08:42PM (#20659414)
Convince me this is any different in America.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by yummypaint on Friday August 09, 2019 @10:50PM (#20659843)
If anything it's so much the opposite in the US that it's a problem. Private interests calling the shots and writing their own laws to the detriment of the country has become standard procedure. The supreme court effectively legalized all but "quid pro quo" corruption a few years ago. The US military industrial complex has become so full of rent seeking entities its a wonder anything is successfully developed anymore. Look at the history of the f-35, it's a clear example of the sunk cost fallacy being weaponized against the strategic interests of the country.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by aristophenes on Friday August 09, 2019 @10:22PM (#20659762)
Seems like a lot of American companies have been working pretty hard to get around the sanctions to sell things to black listed Chinese companies. I would take that as pretty good evidence that American companies tend to be independent of the government.

Also it's just pretty clear in general who has what interests in large American corporations. You can look at the chain of command up to the board of directors back to the shareholders.

Re:Who Owns Huawei? by baddox on Friday August 09, 2019 @10:35PM (#20659801)
Why wouldn’t American companies that were not independent from the government circumvent sanctions? That’s like saying that no one in the US government would have ever tried to circumvent US drug laws.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by jjeaff on Friday August 09, 2019 @10:38PM (#20659808)
It's just not. Look at Apple's fight with the government over unlocking the iPhone as a recent example. Can you imagine a company is Russia or China fighting like that to keep secrets away?
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by tthhuyid on Friday August 09, 2019 @11:06PM (#20659893)
Didn’t Snowden reveal otherwise?

That if the government really wanted the information, the could just send a National Security Letter using Secret Courts.

Aren’t the fates of Lavabit and MCI demonstrations of that power?

Re:Who Owns Huawei? by Lendal on Friday August 09, 2019 @11:25PM (#20659943)
Snowden didn't know everything then, and he knows even less now. Also, asking a company for data or even stealing the data through subterfuge doesn't make you an owner of that company.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by DiogenesKynikos on Saturday August 10, 2019 @01:26AM (#20660370)
Yet that's essentially what people are claiming with Huawei, even right here in this thread.

Huawei is not a state-owned enterprise, yet people are saying that operating in China, being subject to pressure from the Chinese government, makes it essentially state-owned.

Yet we know from Snowden that basically all the large American tech companies were secretly providing access to the NSA or had been pwned by the NSA. So far, there's no evidence that Huawei has spied on its customers, or that their products contain backdoors.

Re:Who Owns Huawei? by darkhorn on Saturday August 10, 2019 @01:26AM (#20660369)
Pavel Durov did his best to prevent Russian government to obtain Ukrainian users' data, at Vkontakte.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by varjag on Saturday August 10, 2019 @06:23AM (#20661233)
And look how it worked out for him. It's hardly a counterexample to GPs point.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by baddox on Saturday August 10, 2019 @12:08AM (#20660094)
Do you know that this hasn’t happened in Russia or China? Are you suggesting that no company in Russia or China has ever resisted any demand from their government?
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by smacktoward on Saturday August 10, 2019 @01:08AM (#20660300)
We know Apple has. If you believe there are Russian or Chinese companies that have acted similarly, that’s fine, but to convince the rest of us the burden is on you to provide some examples.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by baddox on Saturday August 10, 2019 @01:22AM (#20660350)
I disagree on where the burden of proof lies. I live in the US and keep up with US tech company news, so I would expect to hear about Apple’s conflict with the US government. I know of very few Russian or Chinese companies, and I wouldn’t expect to hear domestic news about companies in those countries having conflict with their government.

Note: the original claim is that companies in those countries DO NOT attempt to defy their government for similar information requests. I believe the burden of proof for that claim is on the people making that claim. I am not claiming that this has happened in either country. I’m only stating that I will not believe the original claim without seeing some evidence.

Re:Who Owns Huawei? by p1esk on Saturday August 10, 2019 @02:22AM (#20660522)
Russian social network Vkontakte tried to resist. The founder and CEO got fired, and the company was taken over by Kremlin associates.
Re:Who Owns Huawei? by jjeaff on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:17AM (#20672639)
> the original claim is that companies in those countries DO NOT attempt to defy their government for similar information requests. I believe the burden of proof for that claim is on the people making that claim

Surely you see the absurdity of that remark?

There are no substantial cases of companies in Russia and China where they have tried to fight information disclosures. Except for the high profile case of the social network in Russia... which is now under new, Kremlin friendly leadership.