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Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by CobrastanJorji on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:28PM (#20636225)
Even if lawyers don't learn to code, I think they'd find source control to be a significant boon.
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by twothamendment on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:39PM (#20636351)
I wish our laws were in source control, even the bills that don't pass. I'd love to see who added the pork, who watered it down, etc.

With a 2,000 page bill, it would make it easier to keep up with the changes, even if you don't yet know what is in every page at the start.

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by petetnt on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:51PM (#20636464)
This article was pretty neat (How I Changed The Law With A GitHub pull request) https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/11/how-i-changed-th...
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by WorldMaker on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @01:51PM (#20637073)
Something I find interesting is that Robert's Rules of Order encapsulate a simple, early version of source control. Amendment processes are early pull requests, built to peer review diffs to the most recent previous document. If done properly, the minutes for a meeting should represent almost a full commit log, including discarded branches.

In College, I did spend some time wondering if a good Robert's Rules meeting running software might be a generally useful project, after being in a few society meetings where branches got long and twisty (amendment to an amendment to a proposal type things). Never did build anything more than a prototype though.

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by howard941 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @02:40PM (#20637582)
Tangentially, when counseling clubs and other non-profits clients seem to reach for Robert's Rules. Robert's Rules is very well marketed but IMO are just awful, clubs tear themselves apart following them, and invariably one or two members expertly wields procedural R'sRs to the detriment of minority opinions and good neighborliness and the club founders.

Seek out Thomas Jefferson's Manual for those clubs you'd like to see thrive. It promotes fraternity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson%27s_Manual

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:41PM (#20636367)
The amendments and such are generally public, right? Presumably someone could put that into Git.

It would be an interesting project. Particularly if you could also wrap up the git in an interface that's accessible to non-programmers.

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by CobrastanJorji on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @01:41PM (#20636974)
Is there a regularly updated copy of the U.S. Code available for download? Or a feed of individual passed bills? This seems tractable but I'm somewhat worried that the "free" version is bound volumes in the Library of Congress and the digital version belongs to some quasi-private agency out there that might sue me for attempting to republish the laws.
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by pnw_hazor on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @03:48PM (#20638178)
All US Federal statutes and agency rules are online. The amendment and rule making process is transparent.

As far as the US goes, the Federal Register is a good place to start to see things as they happen.

https://www.federalregister.gov/

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by torstenvl on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @01:02PM (#20636589)
On the executive agency side, it's not uncommon to produce a "redline" version that's kind of like a manual, carefully drafted "Track Changes" version of a document. I produced one for the U.S. Marine Corps for the Temporary Early Retirement Authority.
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by Udik on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:47PM (#20636426)
Laws (at least in Italy, probably in other countries with similar systems) are actually commits to a source control system- in the sense that they contain both new content and modifications to previous content (additions, changes and deletions).

What I think is missing is a concept of document: commits (laws) just accumulate on top of each other without producing named, organized documents (files, in proper source control systems) with clear responsibilities, that can be easily referred to from other documents, and of which the latest version is the only one that counts.

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by maxerickson on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @01:21PM (#20636800)
US jurisdictions mostly produce the organized documents you speak of. For instance, the codified laws here:

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/statutes.php

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by Udik on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @02:35PM (#20637519)
This (from a quick reading, I might have misunderstood) seems to be a system for categorising laws, but not exactly what I was talking about: when you look for something, you're still referring to individual laws, by law number or popular name.

Instead, when you want to read a computer program, you don't look at individual commits to the code base, you look at its files. Commits are more or less irrelevant, what counts is the most recent version of a set of documents, and each commit might create, modify or delete more than one document.

It seems only a change in perspective, the end result is the same; but reasoning in terms of documents with well-organised names and responsibilities, describing processes and data and designed for reusability, is much easier and more compact.

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by maxerickson on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @11:43PM (#20641653)
Here's a better link, to the text of the United States Code:

https://uscode.house.gov/

It's still full of references to bills and such, but it is the consolidated text of the law.

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by james_in_the_uk on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @05:36PM (#20639388)
This is one aspect of how LexisNexis and Westlaw make their money. Copies of legal instruments in their up-to-date 'as amended' form are often behind a paywall.
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by rayiner on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @01:20PM (#20636789)
Same in the US. Most bills are structured as diffs to the United States Code.
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by gowld on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @01:04PM (#20636619)
https://www.google.com/search?q=git+for+laws

has lots of intersting proposals and attempts

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by davnicwil on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:39PM (#20636352)
Very true, actually thinking about it contracts and laws are perhaps the perfect usecase for source control - plaintext, can track who changed what and when, etc.

I guess the main blocker for this would probably be the formatting used to produce the documents. It would have to be a human readable markup language of some kind. Does anyone know what the standards are for, for instance, contract generation, in the legal industry? Are markup languages etc used or is it mostly just MS Word -> pdf?

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by tannhauser23 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:51PM (#20636467)
When I was practicing law couple years ago people were just sending around Word documents with redlines for changes. I'm sure there are companies that make version-controlled, share-editing tools for contract markups but I don't think they really caught on.
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by rayiner on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @01:21PM (#20636802)
They’re used universally at larger firms. Net Documents, FileSite, etc.
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by james_in_the_uk on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @03:25PM (#20637992)
Shudder. A world of difference between these tools and source control.
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by rayiner on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @04:12PM (#20638427)
Apples and oranges. Source control is better in some respects, such as tracking related changes in groups of files, or automatically merging changes by multiple authors into the same document. This is rarely useful in legal work, where there might be at most a couple of documents (and typically just one) touched to implement a logical change. Moreover, because of the need to maintain a consistent "voice" throughout the document, it's rarely useful (at least on the litigation side of the fence), to automatically merge multiple changes to the same document at the same time.

On the flip side, DMS have far better tools for file preview, search, tagging, etc., and better integration with Microsoft Word and Outlook. These features are very important to lawyers.

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by james_in_the_uk on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @04:48PM (#20638860)
I think there's space for a middle ground.

Word and Outlook are defacto business tools for sharing legal documentation but oftentimes they are blunt instruments. I see mistakes or delays due to poor tooling all the time. E.g. the wrong versions are emailed, or each party's attorney makes their changes into a different copy of the document, the document becomes corrupted and needs to be copy-typed (I've never gotten to the bottom of what corrupts a document, other than to note it seems to be related to heavy commenting and track changes), or even just unproductive time needing to make simple updates across tens of files.

A github equivalent for lawyers would be fantastic. In fact I think it could be a killer app for the legal industry if it were possible to convince a quorum of big firms to move to it. Think: issue logging per substantive issue; pull requests for changes linked to each issue; full history of each lawyer's changes etc. Roll in some IDE for contact drafting with syntax highlighting, hinting, automated refractoring etc. All these technologies would be just as useful for lawyers as they are for developers.

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by mkyujung on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @05:38PM (#20639417)
For what it’s worth, I agree. I’m a junior lawyer at a big corporate law firm in NZ and it’s incredible that we don’t have anything resembling Github or meaningful source control.

If a small team of developers were to build a simple web app the way lawyers draft legal documents, it would look like this:

1. Developer 1 writes up the initial JS, CSS, and HTML files and emails them as an attachment to Developer 2.

2. Developer 2 prints out the files, edits them via hand markups, sends the printouts to his secretary to mark up electronically, and then emails the files to Developer 3.

3. Developer 3 repeats step 2 but emails the files back to Developer 1.

4. During this whole process, while one developer is working on the app, the other developers are waiting idly - even if they could be working on a separate part of the app with no risk of conflict.

This is a simplified explanation and lawyers will have some degree of version control internally through software like i-manage, but I find it hard to believe this process couldn't be improved significantly. I’ve been seriously considering starting a company in this space.

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by rayiner on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @06:47PM (#20640006)
The premise that the other team members could be working in the documents at the same time is false. I’m a litigator, so that’s a bit different, but there’s almost never a situation where I want other people editing the document while I’m doing so, even if the technology permitted the changes to be integrated seamlessly.
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by solveit on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:31PM (#20641302)
Is this inherent to the way law works, or did practices develop this way to route around the messiness of simultaneous changes without git?
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by rayiner on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:42PM (#20641357)
It’s inherent to the way writing prose works. Documents are sequential, not modular. You can’t have 10 people all working on a novel at the same time. Maybe there are a few logical sections you can split up, but even then everything needs to be in the same voice so someone needs to massage the pieces during integration. Automatic merging provides little benefit over copying and pasting a couple of individual sections together. There are also very few documents being written. (The ratio of documents read to documents written is probably 100:1 between cases, discovery documents, etc.) You’re never editing dozens of files at the same time. Maybe 3-4, and often just one.
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by mkyujung on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @11:50PM (#20641687)
Right now I’m working on a 100 page due diligence report. Even if I’m doing a simple task like proofreading, I have to mark up my changes by hand and wait for the document to become available to access because an associate is making edits to a single page of the report. To make things worse, once we finish our draft, we’ll send this document to our clients, the investment bankers, and the auditors to review and send us 3 different versions of markups. Meanwhile we’ll be continuously updating the document ourselves.

Often it becomes unclear who has edited what and when, and its exacerbated by the fact that many lawyers still prefer to mark-up documents with pen and paper and have them updated later by their secretary (while in the meantime the document will have gone through another round of markups from other lawyers in the team).

I don’t know if an automatic merge is the right solution either, but I can absolutely see the value in software that helps manage this mess. I realise it might be different in litigation, because in this case we’re not trying to draft a coherent legal argument but tick off a series of regulatory checkboxes that are semi-independent from each other.

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by james_in_the_uk on Thursday August 08, 2019 @04:08AM (#20642701)
Perhaps it's a contentious vs non-contentious thing but in the latter (my world) we edit drafts collaboratively all the time.
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by maccard on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @01:34PM (#20636915)
Word has Track Changes built in already,
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by gamblor956 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @01:40PM (#20636965)
The standard is Word, because Word allows for formatting and for version tracking and works well with DMS software.
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by james_in_the_uk on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @05:14PM (#20639157)
Word is deeply frustrating, buggy and prone to formatting glitches, but has the network effect.

A specialist contract markup language with a nice lawyer-friendly IDE would be ideal, but would need serious marketing $$$ and lots of patience to achieve broad adoption.

Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by rayiner on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @01:19PM (#20636774)
We use source control (document management systems).
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by james_in_the_uk on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @03:24PM (#20637982)
And syntax highlighting. Coders really only solve their own problems well. Everyone else gets "built to the spec".
Re:Should lawyers learn to code? Arguments for and against by pnw_hazor on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @01:19PM (#20636780)
Document management software usually provides versioning.

Unfortunately, since most law offices rely on Word, et al., just using git isn't to helpful.