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Re:What you may have heard about the dispute between UC and ... by geofft on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @08:47AM (#20634169)
This argument sounds very much like the arguments I remember hearing in the early 2000s about open source. "Sure, Microsoft is bad, but can random hobbyists on the internet produce something of the same quality?" "There's just no way that this Finnish dude wrote an entire operating system from scratch, he must have stolen work from this commercial UNIX that took years of paid engineering work to develop." "MySQL is good for people setting up websites at home, but professional users are going to prefer Oracle."

Much like with open-source software wasn't so much about it being free as changing the development model (you could see the source, send in patches, and have a direct discussion with the engineers who wrote that code), one of the more interesting changes is how much research progress now happens via preprints or even just blog posts. There is definitely a valuable role for journals as the gatekeepers of what research you should pay attention to and the facilitators of communication, but like account reps that insulate engineering teams from customers and help prioritize what's important, in practice they aren't working well enough any more to justify having them.

(And the implication, then, is that this work is hardly menial; you want a person actually familiar with your discipline to triage bugs or sort through preprints. And it turns out you're in a better spot to find or train up those people than the middlemen are.)

Re:What you may have heard about the dispute between UC and ... by buboard on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:08AM (#20634322)
Thats not a valid analogy because reviewers and authors already work for free for closed-access journals. And open-access journals are not of lower quality, just not as popular. The closest analogy would be the App Store which forces programmers to pay an extortionate tax to have their code 'recognized'.
Re:What you may have heard about the dispute between UC and ... by geofft on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:56PM (#20636521)
If I'm understanding you right, I think you're saying that open access is even more tenable than open source, which I agree with :)

But the secret of open source is that it was the same people (or at least the same job roles) who were previously writing proprietary software. Companies just decided that it made more sense to have them collectively, collaboratively work in public on infrastructure software than to pay a single vendor for closed-source code. It's not that hobbyists are implementing core OS scheduling primitives like cgroups, it's that the professional engineers doing that are now employed directly by end users like Facebook or Google instead of by vendors like SCO or Sun.

Re:What you may have heard about the dispute between UC and ... by qekbg on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:19AM (#20634414)
>Sure, Microsoft is bad, but can random hobbyists on the internet produce something of the same quality?

Can they? All pieces of software that are the core part of the Linux desktop (kernel, Xorg, GNOME, Firefox, etc) are backed by big corporations.

Re:What you may have heard about the dispute between UC and ... by flyingfences on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:29AM (#20634484)
"Backed by", sure, but still free and open, which is UC's (and, I believe, the larger academic community's) ultimate goal.
Re:What you may have heard about the dispute between UC and ... by geofft on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:55PM (#20636503)
Right - the actual answer here is that the people developing Linux weren't bored hobbyists in their basement at all, but employees of big corporations. (Perhaps employees for big corporations working remotely in their basement.) The development structure was different, in that you had employees from one corporation reviewing code from employees of another mailing lists full of people collectively deciding priorities, customers writing patches for their own needs, etc. And that was incomprehensible to people who expected traditional forms of software development; they couldn't conceive of anything other than what they knew or hobbyists in basements.

No one is saying that we don't need talented scientists writing and reviewing papers or organizing journals. The claim is that the structure of doing this through Elsevier doesn't make sense any more.

Re:What you may have heard about the dispute between UC and ... by DannyB2 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:33AM (#20635025)
Big Corporations contributing manpower to open source means (gasp!) that they must have discovered some profit motive to using, and supporting open source! They're not doing this out of the goodness of their heart; but to increase shareholder value.

Gee, what if open academic publishing could also work, without the likes of Elsevier?

Re:What you may have heard about the dispute between UC and ... by IfOnlyYouKnew on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @08:56AM (#20634226)
So what's Linux market share for desktops these days?
Re:What you may have heard about the dispute between UC and ... by geofft on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:06AM (#20634306)
About 40%, because if you're comparing relative to the early 2000s, mobile devices are now filling the role that only desktops filled them. Drawing a distinction makes about as much sense as distinguishing desktops and laptops.

Plus, given that when folks like Darl McBride said "He can't have written an entire OS" they were clearly not thinking about just the Linux kernel, I think there's a solid argument for counting macOS and iOS too, both of which depend on the assumption that open-source code is of comparable quality to proprietary, commercially-developed code. Everything from their core kernel to the shell to the database for storing contacts (SQLite) is code developed in ways that the McBrides of the world said was untenable. That bumps it to almost 60%.

(Don't try me, I still have my Slashdot-honed debate skills.)

Re:What you may have heard about the dispute between UC and ... by IfOnlyYouKnew on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @02:33PM (#20637488)
Wow, that comment was misunderstood... I use Linux, don't use Windows, and still think it's obvious that there is a certain feature set, i. e. the classic consumer desktop, that the community tried and failed to compete for. Of course Linux is a perfectly fine OS, but it again took a commercial effort (Android) to reach mainstream adoption on mobile.

Please read this in the context of the analogy: the OS is the science, the UI is typesetting/distribution/etc.

Re:What you may have heard about the dispute between UC and ... by geofft on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @08:25PM (#20640673)
So, yes, GNOME and KDE didn't put a dent in Windows. But that wasn't the argument the anti-Linux folks were making. They were saying that as a process of producing software, open-source development was missing some magical property of the development practice - testing, professionalism, sustainability, security, etc. - that only closed-source proprietary development could provide. The reason Linux desktop failed to displace Windows was none of that: there's no (serious) argument that customers stayed with Windows because it had better stability or security. They stayed with Windows largely for compatibility and because it was free. The only missing feature was 100% compatibility with existing Windows software, which wasn't part of the claim.

As it happens I think that's actually directly analogous to the open access fight now. Universities stick with pricy journals not because those journals provide better typesetting or distribution (or science) but because those journals are the only way to get to existing papers. If Windows had never existed until today, nobody would switch to it; similarly, if Elsevier had never existed until today, nobody would start subscribing to them.

Re:What you may have heard about the dispute between UC and ... by tjansson on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:09AM (#20634327)
Or you could ask what does the top 500 supercomputers all run... Linux. See: https://itsfoss.com/linux-runs-top-supercomputers/

Or servers, or mobile devices in the form of Android phones. Desktop usage is only one many use cases for Linux.

Re:What you may have heard about the dispute between UC and ... by godelski on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @04:15PM (#20638450)
To be fair, running on anything in the top 500 is a pain in the butt. Cray's are a major pain. I hear the NSCCs computers (TaihuLight and Tianhe) are essentially linpack machines, in reference to their difficulty. But I've never used them. HPC is just overall difficult and frustrating. But it is getting better.

But if we look at servers, there's a ton of Linux servers out there. Might be a better metric than computers that a small subset of programmers use. Linux accounts for >30% of this share and Unix like is >60%. Those are really important.

Also a lot of embedded systems run Linux.

Either way I think we pretty much agree. Linux is everywhere. Just not big on desktops. But huge everywhere else (which has a larger share of the computing resources in the world).

Re:What you may have heard about the dispute between UC and ... by jsjohnst on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:47AM (#20635194)
Virtually all TVs (especially ones with any type of “smart” functionality) sold today run Linux too.