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Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by eridius on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:13PM (#20616643)
> it's beyond clear to me that it absolutely had the potential to radicalize shooters and terrorists

I mean, it literally radicalized white supremacist terrorists. There's no "had the potential" anymore, it's a fact.

It also sounds like it held plenty of child porn, so I don't understand why it took until now for anyone to do anything about the site.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by komali2 on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:22PM (#20616774)
CP gets knocked off the board fast. 4chan and 8chan know the line, though it is in a weird place (it probably should be on the other side of "fomenting white supremacy")
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by mieseratte on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:06PM (#20617472)
> 4chan and 8chan know the line, though it is in a weird place

"Things we legally cannot host" is exactly where one would expect them to draw the line. Whether or not you agree with that position is another matter.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by pault on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:11PM (#20618376)
The mods remove those posts as quickly as they can. It's impossible to prevent it when you're hosting a board that allows anonymous image uploads. No pre-approval process could keep up with the amount of content posted on a popular board, especially when the site is being run on donations.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by komali2 on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:44PM (#20618723)
Sure, but I would be worried about taking blame if 9/10 white supremacist terrorists turned out to be active on my forum.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by jquery on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:03PM (#20621025)
Someone tell Facebook and Twitter
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by eridius on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:26PM (#20616838)
Do posters get banned? If it's not accepted on the board then why does it keep getting posted, and posted sufficiently often that many people are claiming 8chan has CP?
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by drusepth on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:30PM (#20616897)
"Accounts" aren't banned (because there aren't accounts required to post), but IP bans are very common.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by Anon1096 on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:37PM (#20616997)
People are claiming that 8ch has CP in order to discredit it. The claims aren't true and the site has been removing such content for a long time now.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by klyrs on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:47PM (#20618071)
They remove it because people keep posting it. Just because its existence is transient, doesn't mean it isn't there
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by komali2 on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:45PM (#20618737)
There's nothing stopping the same thing happening to HN, except the people that do it have no interest in doing so (and images don't auto-display, I guess).

They're all behind variable IP VPNs. Permanently getting rid of them is nearly impossible.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by eridius on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:58PM (#20620107)
8chan deliberately set itself up such that it's impossible to do anything beyond an IP ban. This was a conscious choice they made, and that doesn't mean they get a pass on failure to enforce rules as a result.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by DuskStar on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:09PM (#20620686)
How about Bitcoin? Does it get a pass for distributing CP? (Since IIRC there's some embedded in the blockchain)
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by komali2 on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:25PM (#20630968)
How would you embed CP in the Bitcoin blockchain?
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by DuskStar on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @09:51PM (#20631364)
By making a transaction (or series of transactions) that happen to have a binary representation (or destination address, or comment, or...) that decodes to CP - the same way that you'd store any other arbitrary data there.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by bossybeagle on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:15PM (#20617600)
The 8ch.net/delicious/ board routinely had extremely realistic animated images and video of prepubescent girls having sex with older men. The images were reported to mods who left them up.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by DuskStar on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:24PM (#20617742)
That's the sort of thing that starts to hit some really grey areas, and also starts to illuminate some of the differences in the justifications for banning CP. If you're against CP because it means the exploitation of children, animated images of children that do not exist should be fine - but if you're against it due to it being disgusting or normalizing the abuse of real children it's not. However, I believe that the Supreme Court has thus far held that drawings fall under the 1st Amendment, as (IMO) they most certainly should.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by lonelappde on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:33PM (#20617870)
There is an important shade of grey between "clearly artificial image" and "real image", where "artificial but real-looking image" sits. It has the same normalizing effect as a real image.

Otherwise there's no reason to oppose real images, since the harm is done before the image is ever seen.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by DuskStar on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:49PM (#20618095)
> Otherwise there's no reason to oppose real images, since the harm is done before the image is ever seen.

We ban specifically real images for two general reasons - one is that allowing them encourages the production of more such images, necessitating additional abuse, and the second is that for the children involved, knowing that other people are looking at those images is a huge violation.

Neither of those applies for "artificial but real-looking" images.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by komali2 on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:28PM (#20617804)
Animated images and videos of prepubescent girls having sex may be distasteful, but under US law it's not considered child pornography.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by marvin on Monday August 05, 2019 @05:23PM (#20619145)
Fun fact, there are places in the Western world where it is considered illegal to the same degree as photographs of children being abused. And ditto for textual descriptions of this fictionally happening. Scandinavia, for instance. Which is admittedly not famous for its uncompromising approach to freedom of expression.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by hgoel on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @11:45AM (#20626192)
There are also places where sexual content of adult women is illegal if they look young.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by DuskStar on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:53PM (#20617269)
Or at least they're no more true than claiming Imgur and the like have CP. (Dropbox and Google Drive almost certainly do, thanks to encryption)
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by komali2 on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:38PM (#20617019)
IP Permaban and allegedly details forwarded to law enforcement. Never ever heard of any actual consequences though, and "everyone" hits 8chan / 4chan through a VPN anyway.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by ethbro on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:26PM (#20616834)
*Formenting \w+ supremacy
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by colanderman on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:00PM (#20617396)
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by PhasmaFelis on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:15PM (#20617603)
I think "\w+" is regex for "one or more non-specified words," so they're nitpicking that it should be "* supremacy" instead of "white supremacy", in a weirdly obtuse and technical way.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by ethbro on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:07PM (#20620679)
Aside from the misspelling, it was because I didn't want to look up how to escape italics.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by Godel_unicode on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:14PM (#20617579)
You are correcting someone who used the word correctly. You have also misspelled "fomenting".

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/foment

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by spaginal on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:33PM (#20616943)
Are you of the belief that hatred and radicalization doesn’t exist in environments that lack free speech?

Lot’s of places on this planet have hyper radicalized portions of their populations that commit aggregious acts of violence, and they lack free speech.

Yet free speech is being used as the red herring to blame.

Unequivocally, your assessment of these forums causing the radicalization is wrong. Plain wrong. These people exist in any environment, they go into the shadows, they continue to lash out, and removing and restricting rights for every person DOES NOT STOP THIS BEHAVIOR.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by eridius on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:04PM (#20617451)
This isn't a free speech issue. We have free speech in most parts of our country without radicalization. This is an issue of a specific environment that actively celebrates hatred and awful behavior. "Free Speech" is a red herring. Just because it's legal to say this stuff doesn't make it okay to say it, and it's society's job to stamp out this kind of thing.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by afiori on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:49PM (#20618759)
Something relevant here is that I believe that there is a significant amount of illegal speech on 8chan (or also twitter for that matter). Moving the discourse over to better enforcing current laws looks like an underestimated approach.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by spaginal on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @06:12AM (#20623834)
Clearly it is not illegal speech.

Regardless of that, is your solution to a decades old problem that pre dated the internet is to ban online forums that don’t tow approved narratives?

I think you will be incredibly disappointed in the results of your solution.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by afiori on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @06:45AM (#20623984)
There is illegal speech on many platforms. Twitter is used for doxing for example.

I do not like companies being the arbiters of good, but in this case (as far as CF is concerned [1]) I believe they did no wrong.

They clearly state that they should not be in the business of policing legal content they host, but also work hard to make sure they are not hosting illegal content. This way is better than a twitter-like approach where you only pay attention to high profile situations.

(In many senses twitter is doing a good job, but in other senses they (and their employees) have a strong political bias that bubbles up to how they enforce policies)

[1] https://new.blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8cha...

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by spaginal on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @06:00AM (#20623780)
Chicken and egg. Do these forums create the behavior or just create the outlet?

I think we have a fundamental issue with men and how they are treated from a young age in our society, and it has nothing to do with the chans.

You can look at the symptoms or look at the underlying pathology that creates the symptoms.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by jasonlotito on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:30PM (#20618581)
> removing and restricting rights for every person DOES NOT STOP THIS BEHAVIOR.

DUI laws don't stop DUI related accidents, but having and enforcing DUI laws decrease DUI related accidents. And while you can't prevent anything 100% of the time, you can actively work toward reducing the chances of something bad happening.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by spaginal on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @06:07AM (#20623810)
That is the equivalence of saying murder laws prevent or reduce murder, when here we are discussing mass murder events.

There is an underlying issue in our society that creates this lashing out behavior, and hiding it under the precept of preventing radicalization instead of engaging it will not stop the behavior.

We are all adults here. I have children, as many of you do. When your children exhibit a bad behavior, do you ban it or engage it and fix it?

I can tell my children to stop doing something until I’m blue in the face. I can BAN the action from my home, but until I engage with them it’s meaningless and only serves to make me feel good while they continue said things behind my back.

My point is, let’s look at the deeper issues instead of the emotional knee jerk tripe of ban guns, ban speech, blame racism. We have a problem that requires more rational behavior and level heads.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by hgoel on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @11:48AM (#20626242)
Now apply that logic to the war on drugs. Tell us how the war on drugs has actually helped society and how similarly banning 'hate speech' will result in a net decrease in the damage these ideologies cause.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by syshum on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:46AM (#20622786)
We should abolish DUI Laws,

If our ultimate goals are to reduce driver impairment and maximize highway safety, we should be punishing reckless driving. It shouldn't matter if it's caused by alcohol, sleep deprivation, prescription medication, text messaging, or road rage. If lawmakers want to stick it to dangerous drivers who threaten everyone else on the road, they can dial up the civil and criminal liability for reckless driving, especially in cases that result in injury or property damage.

Doing away with the specific charge of drunk driving sounds radical at first blush, but it would put the focus back on impairment, where it belongs. It might repair some of the civil-liberties damage done by the invasive powers the government says it needs to catch and convict drunk drivers. If the offense were reckless driving rather than drunk driving, for example, repeated swerving over the median line would be enough to justify the charge. There would be no need for a cop to jam a needle in your arm alongside a busy highway.

https://reason.com/2010/10/11/abolish-drunk-driving-laws-2/

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by buildzr on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @12:33AM (#20622154)
And I'm sure permanently banning everyone who ever gets a DUI from driving would also decrease DUIs, but there's an important line to draw with how we enforce those.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by Spellman on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:47PM (#20617164)
They may already exist, but that doesn't mean we should amplify their voices and give them the ability to recruit more to their cause and ideology.

Now, that's not to say disruptions of communication systems (e.g. censorship) is the right answer. But existence doesn't mean we shrug our shoulders and do nothing. At the very least you can stop encouraging and normalizing them.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by anigbrowl on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:29PM (#20617815)
Don't shout please.

Nasty people do exist in any environment, but in just the same way that network effects can enormously magnify things like charitable fundraising or the production of cat memes, they can also amplify the production of terrorism or other undesirable activities. Damaging social infrastructure which allows that is an effective way to impede recruitment and organization.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by spaginal on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @06:26AM (#20623897)
Ban free association then if you are worried about the wrong ideas being propogated to people. Build the police state and massive bureacracy that can enforce this at that the detriment to us all, or start trying to engage with these people and solve the fundamental problem.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by reading-at-work on Monday August 05, 2019 @05:49PM (#20619422)
If you think 8chan and 4chan haven't made it uniquely easy for groups like this to spread their message, you're being deliberately naïve. It's not about eradicating the behavior entirely, because yes, that's not truly possible. It's about making it more difficult for people to be recruited and radicalized. Just because you have the right to not go to jail for being racist doesn't mean you have the right to spread those views anywhere and everywhere, and when it has a proven link to encouraging violent behavior it crosses the line IMO.

If it was an ISIS board we wouldn't even be having this conversation, it would already be offline.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by threwawasy1228 on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:24PM (#20621522)
It is funny that you say that since 8chan actually had an ISIS-themed board.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by javagram on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:19PM (#20616729)
I doubt the CP part is accurate, the government could take the site down in that case (unless they were intentionally leaving it up as a honeypot).
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by duskwuff on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:30PM (#20616899)
I'm afraid that part is largely accurate. While 8ch administrators and global moderators did respond to reports of CP hosted on their site, they handled these reports on a largely reactive basis -- the anonymous-imageboard model used by the site made it impossible to block individual posters in any effective fashion, and I don't believe the site had any way to block specific files from being reposted.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by the8472 on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:55PM (#20617311)
> they handled these reports on a largely reactive basis

I don't see anything wrong with that considering the limited and volunteer-based resources they have. Youtube-style content ID pre-censoring built into everything shouldn't be a goal we're striving for.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by luckylion on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:49PM (#20617205)
> I'm afraid that part is largely accurate.

So it ran as a honeypot? I understand that 8chan wasn't hosted anonymously, the owners are known. If they provided a safe haven to child pornography, I assume law enforcement would put an end to that very quickly, especially with obvious and easy ways to apprehend the owners. They've been very active and successful in bringing down hidden services, it's not plausible that they looked the other way for a clearnet site.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by duskwuff on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:00PM (#20617394)
> So it ran as a honeypot?

I don't think so. What seems more likely to me is that one or more of the following is the case:

1) The "fast-flux" nature of imageboards makes it difficult for law enforcement to effectively respond to illegal content hosted on them.

2) Deleting content upon reports places board administrators technically within the boundaries of the law.

3) The arm's-length separation between the owners of 8ch, the users who operate boards on the site, and the users who post content on the site allows the owners to claim a lack of responsibility for that content.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by luckylion on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:21PM (#20617685)
In that case, we're talking about something different though. Saying "they have CP" to mean "there is CP posted which then gets speedily removed by mods before LE can act on it" implies that AWS, Google, FB, Youtube etc also host child pornography. Certainly it will be uploaded and they will remove it.

Only when the platform embraces it does that statement make sense, which apparently 8chan did not if I understand you correctly.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by hgoel on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @11:51AM (#20626267)
Exactly how are they at fault for responding to the issue in the only way the site design can allow? Do you also blame Twitter for only banning people after they've posted something deemed to be breaking the rules? or that it takes 5 minutes to make a new account?

Unless you aren't attempting to imply anything about them being at fault. Although, as long as they are making that good faith effort to take down CP, they can't be taken down by the US govt at least.

Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by dd36 on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:30PM (#20616896)
The government sure got Backpage down quick and thoroughly.
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by gamblor956 on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:54PM (#20617292)
It only took a decade for the government to get Backpage shut down...
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by dwighttk on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:43PM (#20617098)
$$$
Re:8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service by sneak on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:40PM (#20617061)
> I mean, it literally radicalized white supremacist terrorists. There's no "had the potential" anymore, it's a fact.

Other than the fact that 8chan had things on it that you didn’t like, where is the evidence to support this claim? How do we know that it was a website that was responsible for the views of its userbase, as opposed to any other media they accessed? How do we know that 8chan specifically was the factor that caused the outcome?