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Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by carlmr on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:58AM (#20613022)
Oil will be priced according to supply and demand. There may still be use cases which require oil. And however cheap the competition can produce oil it will be priced. This is non-news.
Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by tristanperry on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:02AM (#20613036)
OPEC are much less powerful than the decades of past - thankfully - but it'll be a while before oil will be _truly_ priced by supply and demand and nothing else.
Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by audiometry on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:04AM (#20613050)
Their back was broken when they tried to kill shale oil in 2016 and failed.
Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by paulie_a on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:31AM (#20613204)
Members of opec don't have power because they all cheat.
Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by oska on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:23AM (#20613148)
It can't be priced below the cost of extraction (not without subsidies anyway).
Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by JumpCrisscross on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:26AM (#20613169)
> It can't be priced below the cost of extraction

"Cost of extraction" is a fuzzy term. If it costs $100 to set up a well that lasts 10 years and $1 to pump 1 barrel of oil a year, then is the economic cost is around $11 per barrel (loosely estimated) and the marginal cost $1 per barrel.

This is how an existing well can price below the economic cost of extraction but above the marginal cost. It doesn't make sense to compete with them by setting up new pumps. But pumps last a long time, and there are a lot of pumps out there.

Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by ThomPete on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:32AM (#20613206)
For oil the cost of extraction isnt as simple as you seem to imply. The diversity of what oil can be used for and the value of those things, far exceed to the cost of extracting it. No other material is as valuable and diverse as oil.
Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by JumpCrisscross on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:33AM (#20613215)
> The diversity of what oil can be used for and the value of those things, far exceed to the cost of extracting it

This is a statement about demand, not cost.

Nobody is saying oil is going to zero. And the cost curve for oil production varies greatly from well to well. Many wells are already extracting at total costs above price.

Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by ThomPete on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:18AM (#20613483)
The cost needs to be divided out on other things than just for energy, thats the point.
Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by JumpCrisscross on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:43AM (#20613671)
> The cost needs to be divided out on other things than just for energy

A barrel which costs $50 to produce will cost $50 to produce regardless of its use. There is no "dividing out" costs.

Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by ThomPete on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:21AM (#20613942)
Of course there is as the cost goes to other things than for energy which is the comparison. Its not $20 per area oil can be used, its $20 divided out on all the things its used for.
Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by onion2k on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:02AM (#20613039)
Oil will be priced according to supply and demand.

Supply, demand, and subsidies.

Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by LeonM on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:11AM (#20613077)
> Supply, demand, and subsidies.

Supply, demand, subsidies and political stability of the country that produces it.

In short: oil prices are affected by many factors.

Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by luckylion on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:22AM (#20613143)
Isn't that the case for everything, including green energy tech?
Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by ljcn on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:29AM (#20613191)
I think the distinction is that many people are familiar with green energy being subsidised and surprised that oil & gas (often large, established, wealthy, and profitable companies) are too (at least in terms of tax breaks).
Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by jillesvangurp on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:53AM (#20613332)
There's going to be a minimum cost though and it's higher than 20$ per barrel. At best, producing oil at those price levels is going to be not very lucrative. A lot of the remaining oil out there is getting quite hard to produce meaning the cost is high. E.g. Shale oil becomes a loss leading venture when the prices drop that low. This wikipedia article suggests that 25$ is sort of the lower boundary here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale_economics. I have no idea if those numbers are correct but they are probably much higher than 20$ per barrel.

There is of course plenty of oil left but it is not the same cheap oil that we were used to last century where you basically stuck a pipe in a ground in a place like Texas and cheap oil would come out. Most of that oil is gone. Also, not all oil is created equally and some oil is a lot nicer to work with than other oil when it comes to refining it. Which is why the US still imports oil from the middle east. Refining is not free either obviously and actually uses lots of energy. Ironically, a lot of wind/solar is being used for that.

This is indeed not news. Oil investors have known this for some time and have been voting with their feet. Also, most EV owners are well familiar with the fact that the cost of recharging is peanuts compared to filling up a car with petrol/diesel. I'd say that 20$ is going to come down by 2-4x over the next 20 years.

Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by marble-drink on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:13AM (#20613087)
Not quite. Oil and its derivatives are also subject to heavy subsidies and taxation. These "corrections" are supposed to take into account external costs and benefits that wouldn't be otherwise in the price but, unfortunately, it is also susceptible to corruption. In the case of oil the external costs are so large that taxation can completely take its competitive edge.
Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by AlanSE on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:21AM (#20613141)
Claiming that oil is subsidized is a tired trope. Yes you can argue that the Iraq War was done for oil, it's just not a strong argument. Many oil producing nations use oil revenue to subsidize everything else they (the government) wants, so the subsidy argument stands on weak footing for both consuming and producing nations.

Oil has unpaid for economic externalities, specifically climate change. This is not the same as a subsidy.

Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by marvin on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:31AM (#20613203)
Here is an article with a long list of literal fossil fuel subsidies that are largely ignored when discussing the economic environment for fossil fuels vs. non-CO2 energy sources.

(The article also discusses some of the indirect subsidies that you're describing as a 'tired trope', but the main theme is economic stimulus that directly supports extraction, exploration, distribution, transport and consumption of fossil fuels).

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/10/6/1642845...

Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by navigatesol on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:01AM (#20613372)
Why do they compare absolute figures? Is it surprising to you that fossil fuel subsidies are greater than renewable subsidies by such a measure? How much does each industry earn in taxes?

>Yet this fact, so inconvenient to the conservative worldview

Can you explain what "the conservative worldview" is for the readers? Sounds like the author has an obvious political leaning.

Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by navigatesol on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:52AM (#20613323)
>Claiming that oil is subsidized is a tired trope.

Precisely. Energy of all types receive subsidies, and oil receives fewer subsidies per unit of energy produced than other types of energy. And, in most advanced nations, it's taxed at extremely high levels on the consumer side.

We need to reduce our fossil fuel use, we get it. But this idea that we only burn oil because it's subsidized is bunk. Oil (and coal) is cheap, regardless.

Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by mamon on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:11AM (#20613423)
>> Yes you can argue that the Iraq War was done for oil, it's just not a strong argument.

If it wasn't for oil, then for what? Those chemical weapons that were never found? All wars that US starts (and 80 percent of all wars in the world are started by US) are either for oil, or other economic interests. "Spreading democracy" is just an excuse used by government's public relations division, but it is not even remotely true. There are many non-democratic countries, which US leave alone, because they have not enough natural resources or other wealth to be taken from them to pay the bill for war - Cuba is one such example.

Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by navigatesol on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:17AM (#20613475)
>If it wasn't for oil, then for what? Those chemical weapons that were never found?

You have a pretty simplified political view, my friend.

Iraq sells oil into a market; how did invading them "get us the oil"?

Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by mamon on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:29AM (#20613561)
Before the war US had to buy that oil at market price and all profits belonged to local companies (or to Russian ones, which also operated there). Since war American companies (Exxon Mobil) were granted licenses to extract oil from Iraq oil fields, and now the profits go to them. Not to mention that after Americans pretty much ruined the country, American companies make ton of money on re-building it from ruins. Pretty smart business model: bomb the country, and then charge it money for re-building it :)
Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by theklub on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:49AM (#20613722)
Have you ever heard of Saddam Hussein? There were many reasons to invade.
Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by gnode on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:43AM (#20613272)
> however cheap the competition can produce oil it will be priced

This assumes a perfectly competitive market, which is far from reality. Oil production is dominated by a cartel.

As a cartel can increase prices to maximise profitability, to a large extent, the price of oil is controlled by the price elasticity of demand.

Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by est31 on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:18AM (#20613114)
The moment renewables are cheaper than oil extraction they have won. The issue is just that oil extraction costs, while exant, are quite low for some types of oil. As a long term trend though I guess we'll see energy become cheaper and cheaper in a competitive race, driven by the wish for the market to adopt renewables. So hopefully we'll soon live in a world where energy is cheap and green :).
Re:Oil Needs to Fall Below $20 to Compete With Green Alterna... by ReptileMan on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:31AM (#20613201)
Well renewable plastic and generally speaking polymers are far off. A lot of oil will still be used. Hydrocarbons have way more uses.