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Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by mattmanser on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:15PM (#20608252)
No it's not. That's how change happens.

It's still perfectly legal to destroy the environment in many ways, it doesn't mean we can't complain about it.

If we don't talk about it, nothing happens.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by oconnor663 on Sunday August 04, 2019 @03:51PM (#20608837)
No one designed the environment to be destroyed. But tax laws are often designed precisely to incentivize people to behave in a certain way. If we raise taxes on cigarettes, and then people smoke less, and tax revenue goes down, does anyone complain? Of course not; that's why we raised taxes on cigarettes.

Now sometimes you have tax laws that are poorly designed, where we don't like what happens when people follow the incentives they create. Or other times you have tax laws where people debated about what things to incentivize, and one side won the debate, and you might be on the other side. It's perfectly fair to want to change them. But it doesn't really make sense to criticize people for responding to incentives per se.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by jjoonathan on Sunday August 04, 2019 @06:14PM (#20609561)
If you find a legal loophole that lets you steal cars and subsequently take advantage of it to steal cars then you are still a car thief, still a bad person, and the theft is still newsworthy. The fact that your were "merely following incentives" does not make it right and does not make it uninteresting. Quite the opposite.

You're even more culpable if it is later discovered that you lobbied for the loophole.

Society's reaction should be to disseminate the surprising story and use it to drum up support to fix the law. At that point, the only reason to not pursue the matter further is to serve the higher principle of avoiding ex post facto legislation. It's an important principle, so we allow the crime to go unpunished, but the morality of the situation is still that the theft was wrong.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by ckris on Sunday August 04, 2019 @06:29PM (#20609637)
That is more one type of tax, being punitive taxes. Laws used in tax avoidance are generally designed to make things easier. The flaw isn't usually in the host country (the US is sort of an exception), but more a feature in the tax haven. A simplistic version would be that you say "we shouldn't pay tax here, but there" and then you don't pay much tax there either, because the tax haven is in on it. But you can argue that there are many parties also in the host country who are just as in on it. There are just plenty of people who support that powerful people shouldn't pay much tax, and sometimes they manage to convince everyone else.

But overall you can't really stop anyone doing almost anything. If people don't want large companies to pay taxes, or favor property values instead of building more housing, or reward working in finance instead of engineering so be it. Just don't come and complain a few decades later when everyone is greedy and things are falling apart. Because if moving money around is the way to make money successful companies are going to be just as good at that as anything else.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by thaumasiotes on Sunday August 04, 2019 @11:13PM (#20610894)
> If we raise taxes on cigarettes, and then people smoke less, and tax revenue goes down, does anyone complain? Of course not; that's why we raised taxes on cigarettes.

In this exact scenario, people complain all the time. They start talking about how we need to raise other taxes to make up for the new shortfall in cigarette-related revenue.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by xzel on Sunday August 04, 2019 @06:14PM (#20609565)
> No one designed the environment to be destroyed. But tax laws are often designed precisely to incentivize people to behave in a certain way. If we raise taxes on cigarettes, and then people smoke less, and tax revenue goes down, does anyone complain? Of course not; that's why we raised taxes on cigarettes.

Ah yes a terrible example for the argument you're trying to make. In NYC bodega's sell cigarette "illegally" imported from VA. It doesn't and hasn't stopped people from smoking, at all. It's a vanity bill. Also, it helps generate revenue because most people from outside of the city won't have a bodega that will sell them untaxed cigs, which is always the easiest way to pass taxes, have a non-local pay them. Does government run lotto help stop gambling? No, they just want a piece of the pie.

In general, the average income tax law (the basic stuff) isn't poorly designed, its just under enforced and the extra tax law makes the rest very difficult to work with. Right now, what is poorly designed in tax code is the effect of increased globalization, software and international tax treaties/law. a Also, not paying your taxes when you're using government benefits should be criticized, 100%. For example, Walmart formerly not paying a living wage and making the tax payers support some of their employees, while the founders kids are all billionaires, is totally broken.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by rapind on Sunday August 04, 2019 @06:43PM (#20609719)
Raising taxes on cigarettes or liquor with the intent of influencing behavior is big brother BS. If however you're doing it to pay for the future health care costs that smoking incurs I'm all for it (if the health care system is public).

The whole "nudge" practice because nosy people want to decide what's best for others drives me nuts.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by sdwisely on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:54PM (#20609167)
following the cigarette example though at some point the trend seems to stop declining and the black market fills the gap

in some sense tax havens are kind of like black market banks

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by FDSGSG on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:16PM (#20608253)
The problem isn't with the corporations, the problem (if it exists at all!) may be with the legislation.

Complain about the law.

E: CogitoCogito is absolutely right, there are companies spending lots of money around the world to push these regulations. I just seriously doubt that Activision Blizzard is one of these.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by CogitoCogito on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:25PM (#20608314)
> The problem isn't with the corporations, the problem (if it exists at all!) may be with the legislation.

> Complain about the law.

Do you not suppose that these large corporations with so much money at stake do not in fact use their resources to ensure that laws take their current form? Do believe they are somehow innocent actors in this drama?

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by FDSGSG on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:26PM (#20608326)
I'm absolutely sure Activision Blizzard (a relatively small company) had no significant impact on how these laws were written.
Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by CogitoCogito on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:33PM (#20608370)
In fairness the quote I responded to was this:

> The problem isn't with the corporations...

Are you saying that _none_ of the corporations with large money at stake are taking the financially rational approach of influencing the current state of the laws to have these "loopholes" or are you just saying that Activision Blizzard hasn't done so. If you're saying the latter, maybe you should edit the post I responded to to make that clear.

Edit: Small edits fixing terrible writing.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by FDSGSG on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:41PM (#20608421)
You're right. I'm sure there are many such companies, I just seriously doubt Activision Blizzard in particular is one of them.

E: I edited my prior comment.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by anm89 on Sunday August 04, 2019 @05:40PM (#20609390)
I love hacker news. The only place you see this on the internet.
Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by 0_gravitas on Sunday August 04, 2019 @08:23PM (#20610104)
ActiBliz is "small" compared to companies like Verizon and comcast etc.. but dont be under the delusion that they dont have capital to make things happen, they're one of the big 3 western game companies (I would say the other two are probably EA and Take Two Int.) with the biggest MMO still alive and kicking (along with other well selling IPs). This industry isnt incapable of touching legislation, one of the biggest thing in the industry right now is EA's legal conquest of keeping lootboxes (or "surprise mechanics" as they call it) in games legal.
Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by Scoundreller on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:38PM (#20608407)
I doubt they dreamed up these schemes themselves. Rather they hired some big accountancy firm that does have impacts on how laws are written to do this work.
Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by vernie on Sunday August 04, 2019 @06:57PM (#20609770)
I wish people would stop bullying these modest ~$40B companies.
Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by plufz on Sunday August 04, 2019 @06:30PM (#20609644)
Why can’t we complain about both the laws and the companies? I will complain when companies make low quality products, treat their staff badly or whatever. If our only requirement on companies is to follow the law I think we are setting the bar extremely low.
Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by deogeo on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:25PM (#20608311)
Who do you think lobbies for such laws?
Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by lukevdp on Sunday August 04, 2019 @03:55PM (#20608868)
Politicians don’t have to listen to lobbyists. The blame lies with politicians.
Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by Retric on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:23PM (#20609009)
Everyone talking to a politician about an issue is a lobbyist, that’s what lobbing means.

It’s easy to think only those people you disagree with are lobbyists, but even just sending a letter to your congressional representative is lobbying. And there are paid lobbyists on both sides of almost every issue.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by anm89 on Sunday August 04, 2019 @05:42PM (#20609400)
This is at best half true. There are professional lobbying organizations that have vastly more resources and know how than individuals. And when people complain about lobbyists everyone knows that a this is what is being referenced.
Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by Retric on Sunday August 04, 2019 @06:30PM (#20609645)
The well connected, paid, lobbyists, who need to register, are only the tip of the iceberg.

So called grass roots lobbying generally involves well funded groups organizing or convincing individuals to do the talking. Pretending that’s somehow different from paid lobbyists is missing how politics works.

Companies and Unions for example are often at odds on specific issues, but they both get sincere individuals to be doing some of the communication.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by headsoup on Sunday August 04, 2019 @07:22PM (#20609875)
I only assume the poster above is really referring to corruption, where companies with vested interests are not just 'lobbying' for their outcome, but buying them outright...

Otherwise there is (or at least should be) no difference.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by j88439h84 on Sunday August 04, 2019 @09:17PM (#20610271)
What happens to politicians who don't listen to lobbyists? Do they win reelection?
Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by mycall on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:39PM (#20609096)
> Politician's lies are to blame.

FTFY

But with the high cost of being elected, of course politicans follow the money and the corruption that goes with it.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by jayd16 on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:18PM (#20608274)
It's helpful to have real world examples for context.
Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by FDSGSG on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:20PM (#20608284)
Oh, absolutely. But then the headline would be "$country missed out on $amount in taxes because of lacking regulations" or something similar.
Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by aloknnikhil on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:27PM (#20608330)
Hmm. When the date rolls around to file your returns, I'm assuming you don't actually attempt to maximize your returns?
Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by andrewprock on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:35PM (#20608382)
Few people do.

Most people attempt to fill out their returns in a rather straightforward manner as laid out by the forms. The loopholes are not published in the tax forms.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by refurb on Sunday August 04, 2019 @03:14PM (#20608638)
I don’t think it’s a few.

Did you put money in a 401k?

Did you buy a house and calculate the tax deduction?

Did you hold onto a stock so you’d get the lower long term capital gains rate?

Did you contribute to an HSA or FSA?

The majority of people make decisions that optimize their tax rate.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by ryandrake on Sunday August 04, 2019 @07:50PM (#20609998)
Only 30 percent of Americans itemize and less than half even have a 401(k). 46% do not own any stock at all, either directly or indirectly through retirement savings. We are definitely not talking about the majority here.
Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by refurb on Sunday August 04, 2019 @09:31PM (#20610320)
Owning a house pre-SALT changes? Home ownership rates are in the 60% range.

Have an FSA or HSA?

You can cherry pick my examples.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by andrewprock on Sunday August 04, 2019 @03:33PM (#20608728)
If you think minimizing your tax rate starts and ends with line items on the 1040, you are not minimizing your tax rate.

Not by a long shot.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by Danieru on Sunday August 04, 2019 @09:31PM (#20610314)
It is double think to call the act of minimizing the state of having achieved the absolute minimum while still using the word to describe corporations which are indeed paying more than the absolute minimum.

You are being dishonest in discourse to use that word with different definitions depending on who you apply it to. Either regular people are minimizing taxes when they use rules to reduce taxes, and thus so are corporations. Or neither regular people nor corporations are minimizing taxes because neither has achieved the absolute minimum.

Re:Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of prof... by aloknnikhil on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:45PM (#20608445)
That's my point. They're not opting to do so morally. They're not aware such loopholes exist. I'd be willing to bet most people you talk about wouldn't think twice to reduce their tax bill