News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by zorked on Sunday August 04, 2019 @11:50AM (#20607230)
"He warned that the decision would go beyond Facebook and effect all social media plug ins, which are important for many firms to expand their reach on the web."

Add an image on your own website that links to Facebook. Problem solved. You keep your like buttons, their servers are no longer involved in serving your web page.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by StavrosK on Sunday August 04, 2019 @11:53AM (#20607238)
I did this and wrote about it[0]. It works really well, is very fast and doesn't compromise your users' data. There are also libraries that make it very easy to add.

[0]: https://www.stavros.io/posts/scourge-web-analytics/

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by daxterspeed on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:01PM (#20608903)
Note that by not setting rel="noopener noreferrer" on the links you let the linked sites control the opener window (and of course see a detailed referrer header).

https://www.jitbit.com/alexblog/256-targetblank---the-most-u... (This applies to more than just target="_blank")

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by StavrosK on Sunday August 04, 2019 @06:29PM (#20609636)
You are correct, fixed, thank you. It's a shame this isn't the default on all links.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by _delirium on Sunday August 04, 2019 @08:18PM (#20610088)
For the case of opening in a new tab, consensus seems to be moving to making it default, though that's not true everywhere yet. It's currently default on Safari and Firefox.

Closed (fixed) Firefox bug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1503681

Open Chromium bug: https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=898942

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by yzmtf2008 on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:12PM (#20608962)
If the link is for users to click and like this page on Facebook, then Facebook will be able to know the source URL regardless, no?
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by daxterspeed on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:23PM (#20609013)
Well if the referrer header matches the shared url it's just bloat in the request headers, and if it doesn't it's possibly leaking details it shouldn't, like perhaps a token in a query parameter. Twitter, Facebook, etc doesn't really need to know where a user initiated a share anyway.

Either way making sure that window.opener isn't available to random sites is a critical security feature and in some browsers that require you to set noreferrer, so better safe than sorry.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by TazeTSchnitzel on Sunday August 04, 2019 @01:21PM (#20607876)
I really like that if it's just a simple <a href>, I can completely understand what it does and the code is very short.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by StavrosK on Sunday August 04, 2019 @01:34PM (#20607950)
Yes, and there's no loss of functionality, you can still share/Tweet/whatever. Really makes you think about what exactly all that extra JS the real button loads is doing.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by munchbunny on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:13PM (#20608231)
If you're not asking rhetorically, all of the extra stuff is a delivery vehicle for Facebook/etc. tracking code.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by JasonFruit on Sunday August 04, 2019 @03:55PM (#20608866)
They didn't ask; they said it makes you think about it.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by ec109685 on Sunday August 04, 2019 @06:42PM (#20609710)
Facebook at least used to tell the user if any friends also liked something, as well as tell them whether they had liked the page already.

Not sure if FB still supports that, and where I work, we have used static buttons since forever.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by pbhjpbhj on Sunday August 04, 2019 @12:28PM (#20607474)
Does Facebook allow it?

Unless you have rights holders permissions then the social links at the bottom of that article look like copyright and probably trademark infringements. (I'm not saying that's a good thing, just how it appears.)

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by weinzierl on Sunday August 04, 2019 @05:05PM (#20609220)
It's against Facebook's terms:

> 8. You must not use or make derivative use of Facebook icons, or use terms for Facebook features and functionality, if such use could confuse users into thinking that the reference is to Facebook features or functionality.

We know that Facebook uses that paragraph against alternative like buttons. Many years ago German computer magazine publisher Heise created a version of the like button that works like this: The button is initially greyed out and has to be activated by a slide button to be used. Communication with Facebook's servers starts only when the button is activated.

After threats from Facebook Heise had to change the look of the initial button so that is has none of the Facebook branding. Only the dynamically loaded original Facebook button looks like Facebook like button. [1]

Link to the original alternative like button project in German is [2]. An fork with English documentation is [3].

EDIT: Their current branding guidelines for the "thumb icon" [4] say:

> Do link the Thumb Icon directly to your Page on Facebook when using the Thumb Icon online.

So a thumb icon linking to your page should be OK.

EDIT 2: The branding guideline also says:

> Don't use an outlined thumb with the cuff detached.

So you can use the "Thumb Icon" but not in a way that replicates the current original Facebook like button because that one is outlined and has the cuff detached.

BTW this is exactly what Privacy Badger does: It replaces the original Facebook Like Button (cuff detached) with the thumb icon from the official assets (cuff connected).

[1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/german-website-creates-two-cli...

[2] https://www.heise.de/extras/socialshareprivacy/

[3] https://github.com/panzi/SocialSharePrivacy

[4] https://en.facebookbrand.com/assets/thumb-icon/?audience=lan...

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by thaumasiotes on Sunday August 04, 2019 @08:47PM (#20610185)
>> 8. You must not use or make derivative use of Facebook icons, or use terms for Facebook features and functionality, if such use could confuse users into thinking that the reference is to Facebook features or functionality.

> We know that Facebook uses that paragraph against alternative like buttons.

Did you quote the wrong section? That term can't really apply to alternative "like us on Facebook" buttons, because such a button can't confuse users into thinking it refers to Facebook features or functionality, because it actually does refer to Facebook features and functionality.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by weinzierl on Monday August 05, 2019 @12:58AM (#20611394)
The quote is from the ZDNet article (reference [1]). It says that Facebook brought up this clause specifically as a reason why the implementation violates Facebooks's terms. Here is a little longer quote for more context:

> Unsurprisingly, Facebook didn't like this change. A spokesperson told the German publication that the way it has implemented the Facebook Like button violates the Facebook Platform Policies, specifically quoting this clause:

>> 8. You must not use or make derivative use of Facebook icons, or use terms for Facebook features and functionality, if such use could confuse users into thinking that the reference is to Facebook features or functionality.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by mrmr1993 on Sunday August 04, 2019 @09:27PM (#20610299)
> It's against Facebook's terms:

> > 8. You must not use or make derivative use of Facebook icons, or use terms for Facebook features and functionality, if such use could confuse users into thinking that the reference is to Facebook features or functionality.

As written, if the reference is to Facebook features or functionality, then there can be no confusion and this clause does not apply. This would seem to be the case here.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by weinzierl on Monday August 05, 2019 @01:00AM (#20611408)
Makes sense but isn't Facebook's stance. See my answer to the sibling comment from thaumasiotes.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by donkeyd on Monday August 05, 2019 @05:51AM (#20612705)
Facebook's stance doesn't really matter in the end though. It all depends on how this will be interpreted by a judge, and I have a hard time believing that a European judge would rule in favor of Facebook, since there's no possiblity of confusion for the end user. Also, it is done to protect end-user privacy, which European judges tend to like.

I'm adding European, because that's what the article is about and that's where I'm from. Not sure what would happen in a US court.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by kingludite on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:55PM (#20621342)
The tech giant is its own judge and jury.

IMHO to be complete the law should require web widget providers to serve what it says on the tin.

AND NOTHING ELSE

If it is a button so that users can bookmark articles on the facebook website then it shall only do that, nothing else. And so on: the webmaster must host the image himself. If the functionality can be accomplished with html there shall be no javascript. If there is a need for javascript it will be hosted by the webmaster and shall require consent before calling home to the mothership.

For example, visiting a store doesn't give the store owner the right to search your bag.

Then lets not stop there and include all advertisement???

The advertiser knows the topic of the website he is advertising on, he knows what kind of audience is attracted by a specific article. He can place his advertisement at the top or the bottom to further filter down.

This gives him everything he need to advertise his product on that website. The web master can host the images. A neutral 3rd party, preferably a government agency, can track impressions and provide the advertiser with a crude estimate of traffic by region.

I think it shouldn't stop at having other people do all kinds of things and pay for it. The EU could easily fund its own technologies.

THE EU could give you [say] a Facebook like button in html and require you use it. That they have their own TOS is just irrelevant. Or worse, Facebook shouldn't have to invest in terms of service. We should have detailed laws removing the need for a TOS. Standard laws for social networks should apply.

A restaurant owner doesn't have to clutter up his place with 100 no smoking signs. There is no contract to sign before you can eat.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by kordlessagain on Sunday August 04, 2019 @12:57PM (#20607696)
> Does Facebook allow it?

Who cares? Facebook is a zero sum game at this point for advertisers/content creators. Facebook stacking the odds like a casino does chuck-a-luck. There's only them winning here, nobody else.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by hugi on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:24PM (#20608306)
Blocking facebook tracking, meaning comments/like buttons and the like has vastly improved my browsing experience.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by downandout on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:15PM (#20608975)
Who cares?

The site owner that might be sued by Facebook for copyright infringement, for starters.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by Quenty on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:56PM (#20609181)
Aren’t logos fair use? Maybe a like button might be sueable, but a logo should be fine, right?
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by megous on Sunday August 04, 2019 @05:06PM (#20609222)
And they will be suing for what? For attempting to send more people to facebook? What's the damage?

Facebook has no right to have their arbitrary code on other people's websites. So they can't force any specific way to show their button. From the end user's perspective it's all the same.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by downandout on Sunday August 04, 2019 @05:21PM (#20609302)
Facebook could reasonably argue that by bypassing their established use policies for the like button, you are depriving them of value - in this case the value of the data that their JavaScript collects and sends back to them, and that you (the site owner) are being unjustly enriched through the use of their copyrighted image(s) on your site.

Except in cases of fair use, which isn’t nearly as broad as people think, the use of other parties’ images is subject to whatever licensing restrictions they choose to put on them. You can choose not to display their images if you do not accept those terms.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by saagarjha on Sunday August 04, 2019 @09:54PM (#20610411)
I feel like trying to sue someone for linking to Facebook would go down extremely poorly.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by pbhjpbhj on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:28AM (#20613559)
The reason sites want to have Like buttons is because they perceive value in that for the site. A C&D would be enough to bring anyone in to alignment that didn't have a wish for a very expensive day trip to court.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by Mirioron on Sunday August 04, 2019 @11:51PM (#20611132)
Especially when it's done this way for privacy considerations.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by downandout on Sunday August 04, 2019 @05:38PM (#20609381)
Aren’t logos fair use?

That’s a very broad question. For one thing, fair use is a concept only in US law. Other countries may have their own versions of it, but all of them have their own unique limits. Even under the US version, it is not at all clear that it would fall under fair use. If I start making t-shirts with the Facebook logo on them, is that fair use? No, it isn’t. Is there much difference between that and putting it on a website that I make money from? The right jury would say no.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by cat199 on Sunday August 04, 2019 @03:18PM (#20608660)
perhaps, but if so, they win more when they sue you and you lose...
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by jraph on Sunday August 04, 2019 @01:03PM (#20607747)
I'd bet it falls under fair use: https://www.inta.org/TrademarkBasics/FactSheets/Pages/Fair-U...

By the way, this website does exactly that.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by jhall1468 on Sunday August 04, 2019 @06:47PM (#20609740)
Fair use is a defense. You, at best, get sued, have to pay a ton of money in attorneys fees, on the chance that you "bet" it's going to work. Tough sell.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by FDSGSG on Monday August 05, 2019 @05:35AM (#20612643)
Why would Facebook sue over this?
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by RHSeeger on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:03AM (#20614737)
Because they want the data their button+js gets for them, and if they let you get away with not using the js, then anyone can get away with it. Better to shut it down early and painfully.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by Zak on Sunday August 04, 2019 @01:11PM (#20607805)
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by buboard on Sunday August 04, 2019 @12:34PM (#20607522)
Sure they allow it. The icons are also included in FontAwesome for easier use.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by kitchenkarma on Monday August 05, 2019 @05:36AM (#20612651)
Shouldn't you also show intermediate page with a privacy warning and a cancel / continue buttons? Otherwise user can click it by mistake and compromise his data.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by EGreg on Sunday August 04, 2019 @03:14PM (#20608633)
Yes indeed! Thanks for that and your lightentheweb resource!

May I reach to you (from qbix.com) as we are building a new social operating system for the web?

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by StavrosK on Sunday August 04, 2019 @03:45PM (#20608809)
Sure! My email is in my profile.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by germanier on Sunday August 04, 2019 @01:18PM (#20607856)
This somewhat more fancy implementation of that idea is used on many German websites: https://github.com/heiseonline/shariff or https://github.com/panzi/SocialSharePrivacy
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by giancarlostoro on Sunday August 04, 2019 @01:48PM (#20608054)
I know I am part of the HN bubble but I have not used any of those buttons if ever in years. I wonder how many legit use the buttons vs how many copy and paste a link and it shows up under those metrics somehow? Guessing I am part of the weird bubble.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by tedivm on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:15PM (#20608978)
I put Github "star" buttons on my portfolio site[1], but I also created my own Gitstars API [2] and am hosting my own Button Generator [3] because of some limitations on how Github's API works with static front end websites. This has the added privacy benefits as the improved stability.

[1] https://projects.tedivm.com/

[2] https://github.com/tedivm/gitstars

[3] https://gitbuttons.tedivm.com/

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by wmeredith on Sunday August 04, 2019 @01:58PM (#20608134)
I’d guess the number of users that copy and paste a link to share it is statistically is insignificant considering that many modern browsers don’t even display URLs in the header anymore.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by bredren on Sunday August 04, 2019 @09:11PM (#20610260)
I think people copy paste links all of the time. Modern link preview cards fed by og tags are a big thing, and interpreted nearly everywhere.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by devit on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:56PM (#20609178)
Mobile browser generally have a "share" functionality that can share anything to Facebook or any app that supports that easily, so that's what people would be using rather than copy and paste.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by Mirioron on Sunday August 04, 2019 @11:54PM (#20611150)
I wish I could remove this "share" button. It's unintuitive and a waste of space.
Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by squiggleblaz on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:21AM (#20611708)
It's true the share button is unintuitive, but if you removed anything in a standard phone UI that was unintuitive you'd have about nothing left.

Unfortunately, we live in the day and age where designers and marketers feel it is more profitable and fashionable to distinguish between the ingroup and the outgroup, rather than to empower all users.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by giancarlostoro on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:04PM (#20608170)
All my Firefox browsers do with the exception of the one on my phone and only cause I changed it to show when I scroll back up to save on screen real estate. Its all configurable. Heck... When people press F11 accidentally they start calling all their kids, nephews and grandkids all scared and confused.

Because without that address bar that tech people seem to think normal users dont use they lose their ability to reason about the web.

It will wind up similar to the missing start button on Windows.

Disclaimer: I worked at a local college and had to support students in CS and other Microsoft Office courses. They lost it whenever Microsoft took away the start button but I would tell people its still on your keyboard... Anyway also saw a lot of F11 people losing it.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by hanspeter on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:02AM (#20611641)
Are you not aware of the difference between a like button and a share button?

If you are, I would very much like to hear how you are able to get a like from linking an image to Facebook.

Re:Sites using Facebook ‘Like’ button liable for data, EU co... by tracker1 on Sunday August 04, 2019 @05:25PM (#20609322)
The last public site I worked on, did this for all the social links... was the easiest way to keep it normalized. I didn't want to use their images, etc anyway.