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Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by scotty79 on Friday August 02, 2019 @06:39AM (#20591918)
My SO is currently in hospice after 6 brain surgeries for brain cancer (4 over last year with her state gradually deteriorating). For the last year she was severly disabled and had to be help with sitting down, standing up, lying down and adjusting pillows and blankets as she had very limited use of her hands and general body coordination. She had to be kept safe while walking. It wasn't as good life as she had before but it was life. She was spending time with family, watching ton of netflix and movies, enjoying meals, especially when on steroids. She even managed, with a bit of help, to throw a party for my 40th birthday in march this year, that was cool enough to stave off my usual birthday downward mood swing.

Now she's lying in hospice bed with only minor control of her eyes and even less of her mouth. Barely concious. At most minimally responsive. Feeding tube, oxygen, urinary catheterer, central venous catheter. She's kept alive and somewhat sedated.

First reccurence she had after 5 years after initial treatment and diagnosis. Last recurrence happend in two months. It's already a month past last operation.

I'm a bit torn because I'm firm realist and I believe no matter how bad life is, it is the only thing that has a value for you because it's the only thing you have. When your life ends, there's nothing else, no new game, not even admiring your high score. Your life has an ultimate value to you and you have to try to make the best of it even if it consists of sleeping on morphine all the time till your body just falls apart.

On the other hand... she wished to die on an operating table under general anesthesia. Unfortunately she had too good surgeon for that to happen. If she were to spend 5 years like that I think she'd wish for her cancer to grow faster.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by fjfaase on Friday August 02, 2019 @08:27AM (#20592446)
I wish you much strength. The kinds of decisions you are facing (have faced) are the hardest you can imagine and can only be understood if you have been in the situation yourself. I believe that nobody has the right to judge them. Last October, I lost my then 61 year old wife to Early-Onset Alzheimers disease. I saw her slowly fade-away and losing all her abilities, returning to a baby-like state. People often asked me, if she still recognized me. I often explained that that was a meaningless question. For me, it was far more important, whether I still recognized her. And I did. Luckily for her and us, her death came rather swift. She died within one and half week after developing a high fever (possibly due to dehydration) spending the last five days under palliative sedation.
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by vageli on Friday August 02, 2019 @10:16AM (#20593095)
> I wish you much strength. The kinds of decisions you are facing (have faced) are the hardest you can imagine and can only be understood if you have been in the situation yourself. I believe that nobody has the right to judge them. Last October, I lost my then 61 year old wife to Early-Onset Alzheimers disease. I saw her slowly fade-away and losing all her abilities, returning to a baby-like state. People often asked me, if she still recognized me. I often explained that that was a meaningless question. For me, it was far more important, whether I still recognized her. And I did. Luckily for her and us, her death came rather swift. She died within one and half week after developing a high fever (possibly due to dehydration) spending the last five days under palliative sedation.

I am so sorry for your loss. I need you to know that your words moved me deeply. Particularly

> People often asked me, if she still recognized me. I often explained that that was a meaningless question. For me, it was far more important, whether I still recognized her. And I did.

One of the hardest parts on me was seeing my father suffer a similar decline, but it was the moments of lucidity or idle chat or little things that showed me he was still there to some extent. Thank you so much for saying what I have long felt in my heart.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by scotty79 on Friday August 02, 2019 @12:12PM (#20594145)
> The kinds of decisions you are facing (have faced) are the hardest you can imagine

The thing is there are no decisions to make. She'll be kept alive as long as possible as law and religious morality requires. All the previous decisions that were made were the most reasonable we could take and there were barely any alternatives along the way.

The hard thing for us is just experiencing it all the way and beyond.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by fjfaase on Sunday August 04, 2019 @07:21PM (#20609864)
I understand what you mean. I more mend it, for the people from the outside, who sometimes, so easily, make their judgements and come with their advice.

Although I live in a rather liberal country, the choices are still rather limited. The general approach for people with dementia who are accepted in a care home is palliative care: focus on their well-being, not on extending or shortening life. But there is some room for movement, although the final decision is always in the hands of the responsible physician. For example, as family (or personal representatives) you may indicate that you wish that the administration of antibiotics should start as soon as an infection is suspected or delay it as long as possible, instead of it being administered only to relieve discomfort. We decided for palliative care. But still I felt that there were moments, when choice were made to extend her life. Not with respect to medical treatment, but with respect to feeding her. She was given special high-energy drinks and especially in the last half year, a lot of effort was made to feed her. For example, when she was too tired during a meal time, they would try to give it at another moment. Yet, I felt that I did not have the moral right to interfere or to even bring up the issue. I have respect for the manner in which the decisions were made by her physician and the people who took care for her. Although it was hard to go through the experience, in the end I was at peace with my decision to not to interfere and basically let the professionals make the decisions. But maybe my situation was much easier than yours, because my wife long ago had lost the faculty to know that there were any decisions to be made.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by jtr_47 on Friday August 02, 2019 @08:49AM (#20592542)
All the love to you my friend. I have stage 4 colon cancer + it made its way into my liver. I've been alive for a year now and I have no idea how much longer I have.

I know what you are both going through. I know what myson & wife is going through, seeing me on my bad days during treatment. Knowing that one day I will leave them sooner than we had originally planned.

No matter how bad things are or appear to be I'm a firm believer that there's more after this life and unfortunately we have trek through the good and bad of this one to get to the end. Besides, where did we come from before we were born?

I only live for today, because this is all I have.

Be strong if you can. It's tough and hard. What we are experiencing is apart of life

Peace

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by salgernon on Friday August 02, 2019 @11:32AM (#20593774)
I was dx the same 5 years ago. After two years of treatments and surgery with what I thought was the best team in the country (UCSF) they decided that my liver mets were positioned such that surgery would be impossible. But my wife found a team at Sloan-Kettering in Manhattan that specialized in just this case. They resected 70% of my liver and followed up with one round of radiation - I’m now two years NED. Feel free to contact me username at me.com if you want more details.
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by scotty79 on Friday August 02, 2019 @12:19PM (#20594206)
Thank you. Keep strong. Nobody knows how long they will live. Even healthy people. You have a loving family and the little pleasures. You still have a lot of good ahead of you.
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by asidiali on Friday August 02, 2019 @11:14AM (#20593591)
Your perspective is inspiring. Wishing you the best. Thank you for sharing your experience dealing with this.
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by dnjdrbdhdbs on Friday August 02, 2019 @11:01AM (#20593475)
My mother was in this situation and with the help of a doctor we gave her a fentanyl overdose to help her avoid weeks of pointless suffering.
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by alexibm on Friday August 02, 2019 @10:19AM (#20593116)
Please, take my sympathies. It is one of the most heart breaking stories I have read on HN. Stay strong.
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by gekkeboom on Friday August 02, 2019 @06:56AM (#20592004)
I don't think that life in and of itself is valuable even under terrible conditions. Especially if there is no positive outlook, that things will be better, no reason to hang on.

I think only one thing really matters: QUALITY of life.

Life is not intrinsically sacred. QUALITY of life is to me.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by scotty79 on Friday August 02, 2019 @07:11AM (#20592091)
My belief is that since there's nothing except for life, life of any quality is infinitely better than no life.

However this belief of mine is currentlly being viscerally challenged.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by close04 on Friday August 02, 2019 @08:01AM (#20592338)
> life of any quality is infinitely better than no life

From someone who's been on the other side of the story (albeit nowhere close in severity) I can tell you that this is a philosophical debate that you might have with yourself for years and not really reach a solid and stable conclusion. Because it will change depending on your state. Like promising never to drink again during the worst drunkenness or hangover.

On one hand that low quality of life may be the worst thing you ever experienced and there's the distinct risk of going even lower. On the other hand we have no idea what lies on the other side - nothing or something that may be better or worse. And of course there's always the sliver of hope that all goes well and giving up on life too soon is a waste.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by scotty79 on Friday August 02, 2019 @11:31AM (#20593772)
> not really reach a solid and stable conclusion. Because it will change depending on your state.

I can clearly see with myself how my mood affects my train of thought. And how my mood comes from the state of my body. I think I can stay grounded pretty well even when my mind is in terrible physical condition and goes to the darkest places as a result of that. I can somewhat filter out the influence of mood on my thinking.

> On the other hand we have no idea what lies on the other side - nothing or something that may be better or worse.

We can be pretty sure that there's no other side. All of neuroscience, medicine, biology and what we know about neural networks point to it being that way. The only thing that points to there being some other side is uneducated* people's fantasies and wishful thinking.

* (at least in neuroscience and medicine)

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by close04 on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:14PM (#20594671)
> I think I can stay grounded pretty well even when my mind is in terrible physical condition

Perhaps it's just like torture, given enough time and suffering things change. Every person has a breaking point. I can't imagine anyone taking torture as "keep doing it because it's still better than dying".

> We can be pretty sure that there's no other side.

Pretty sure. I'm not a spiritual person so this isn't about religion. I was just being thorough so until I get to see nothing on the other side I will at least give the option a passing mention.

And I don't think your mind hangs on to life just because once it's over there's only nothingness. The human mind probably can't even conceive what "nothing" means. You might hang on for more "practical" reasons, like "I spent years building this life, I can't waste it especially if there's a slim chance it gets better".

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by PyroLagus on Friday August 02, 2019 @11:36AM (#20593818)
I imagine a year in solitary confinement (how is solitary even legal still?) would likely change your mind. I'd say no life is better than a life of torture, and taking "life of any quality is infinitely better than no life" to the extreme, would mean that hell with eternal constant torture would be better than not existing, which I can't agree with nor understand. I'm glad that you have such a positive outlook on life, but I doubt that you could maintain it in the face of a long torturous experience, few can.
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by scotty79 on Friday August 02, 2019 @12:05PM (#20594087)
People spend whole lives in prison and they still don't want to die. Very small number of people with healthy brains (undamaged by depression for example) kill themselves intentionally even though it's not that hard. Life is very fragile. Somehow even in this world filled with suffering practical calculation lands for almost all people on the side of "let's not end this just yet".

You can ponder eternal torture and not existing but I'm talking about more down to earth thing. Your single life. You will never have anything besides it. It's not eternal torture, it's not even all torture. It is everything you own and the only thing you own. How could you give up any future piece of it that you didn't have to?

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by crankylinuxuser on Friday August 02, 2019 @08:16AM (#20592401)
Is there a living will? What is their wishes, either written or verbally spoken?

In cases where we have to make hard decisions like this, I find some solace that they have made their decisions ahead of time so that we only complete their requests.

I don't envy you at all in this. The same thing happened to my dad, except the life-saving measures failed, and the doctors said there was nothing else they could do. They gave my mom an 'out', since it was not her choice.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by scotty79 on Friday August 02, 2019 @11:43AM (#20593874)
No will, no specific wishes, except for 'be healthy' and 'if not possible, die on the operating table'. No way to obtain them now. Even so they'd make no difference. Ending life is prohibited by both law and religion of the land. Any attempt to do less than possible to keep her alive would be illegal and religiously immoral. We just have to wait till life-saving measures will fail.
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by mlcrypto on Friday August 02, 2019 @11:22AM (#20593665)
That can be disproven easily. Imagine a life in a constant state of pain and torture

To me this proves there exists a threshold at which no life is better

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by scotty79 on Friday August 02, 2019 @11:28AM (#20593730)
As a theoretical scenario you are right but brain is very flexible. If all you know is pain wouldn't you just get used to it and still didn't want to die because as I said, there's nothing else for you?
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by technothrasher on Friday August 02, 2019 @07:11AM (#20592093)
I can respect both positions. I understand completely why people want to hang on to life no matter what, and I also completely understand wanting to be done with a life that offers nothing but pain.

This is why it's desperately important to be honest with your loved ones about what your wishes are, and to respect and help them with theirs.

Personally, I want to live now, and I suspect from watching other people at the end of life, I'll know when I'm ready to go.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by lifesahack on Friday August 02, 2019 @09:01AM (#20592606)
Depression gives you a negative outlook, regardless of how good your quality of life is. An irrational thought loop that whispers to you (or screams at you) that things will not get better. It's easy to conflate negative thoughts into reality.

If you do find a way out, the idea that life itself is sacred (regardless of quality of life) can help keep things in perspective for next time.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by scotty79 on Friday August 02, 2019 @11:53AM (#20593949)
I deeply believe that depression is just physical brain damage and dark thoughts are just the symptom making harder for you to get treatment just like a pain in the knee might make it harder for you exercise it a bit or get to the doctor to get treatment. I don't think that dark thoughts by themselves cause depression or even directly contribute to it. Same way the feeling of pain doesn't make your knee worse.

I think it might be helpful to have distance to your feelings. To understand that unlike your thoughts, your feelings have direct purely biological source. You might find it easier to suffer through them, like you can suffer through limping.

I hope I'll never get depressed so I won't have to find out whether that makes any difference.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by lifesahack on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:32PM (#20594847)
Depression is a negative thought loop that in the moment feels impossible to escape. Irrational thoughts seem rational. In a clinical sense depression (as a disorder) may be the cause. It persists even when your quality of life is good. That said, depression can also be an effect (triggered by a traumatic experience).

Distancing yourself from your feelings may help temporarily, drugs do that.

Occupying your mind with activities that provide a positive reward loop and positive feeling (hobbies, exercise, social activities) likely makes the most difference.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by mikorym on Friday August 02, 2019 @10:44AM (#20593353)
The (well off) CEO of a company I work for went through something similar. Life can get really hard no matter who you are. We are guests to the world on borrowed time and life is precious and fleeting.
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by b_tterc_p on Friday August 02, 2019 @09:39AM (#20592792)
> I'm a bit torn because I'm firm realist and I believe no matter how bad life is, it is the only thing that has a value for you because it's the only thing you have.

I find this to not be self consistent. you would trade two boring work days for one awesome day right? Two bad weeks for a happy one? There has to be some long tail of uncomfortable days that you would rather enjoy on a shorter time frame, even if the long tail is unknown length. Might a warm send off not be preferable to difficult times ahead?

Sorry for your situation.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by scotty79 on Friday August 02, 2019 @11:26AM (#20593705)
> you would trade two boring work days for one awesome day right

In principle you are correct, but in practice you rarely can make such choices because you can't possibly know the future.

You can think you are choosing better life by foregoing the treatment, but it turns out that severe symptoms set in sooner than expected and your life's bad anyways. Or you can think you are choosing longer but worse life but the side effects of the treatment don't seem to affect you much, therapy works way better than expected and you get to experience some joy you couldn't wish for, like holding your newborn grandchild.

What people usually do is balance probabilities and go for longer non-horrible life and hope for the best, and when everything becomes horrible there's usually not much left to make decisions about, which are inherently flawed even then.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by b_tterc_p on Friday August 02, 2019 @05:53PM (#20596942)
it seems illogical to spend a lifetime making decisions on incomplete information and then foregoing the last one.

I mean I get that people make their own choices. I just am confused that more people aren’t interested in having a death of their choosing. Or even consider it. Like, I have a song that I would like to hear as I’m dying. I want to think and reflect on things and feel safe in spite of the incoming end. I am convinced that with a better cultural mindset we could make death a happy, celebrated, communal event that people look forward to in a bittersweet way. The way most people die to me sound sad for all involved, including the dying.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by scotty79 on Friday August 02, 2019 @08:18PM (#20597774)
The thing is, last moment of your life isn't in any significant way special. It matters just as much which music you will listen in your last moment as it matters what music you'll be listening in exactly 43 minutes.

If you like to make decissions you can make and implement them now.

The thing is decissions are tiresome. You might want to forgo some avoidable decissions and focus more on pleasures of living.

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by inflatableDodo on Friday August 02, 2019 @10:30AM (#20593230)
Can she use an eye tracker sometimes? At least then she'd have a line of communication and be able to still watch netflix. I been setting up a tobii ( https://www.tobiidynavox.com ) recently for a friend who thankfully has now got enough control back below the neck to use a dabber with a touchscreen. It didn't take me too much practice with the thing to be able to search for cat pictures on google, using dasher.
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by scotty79 on Friday August 02, 2019 @11:55AM (#20593964)
I think at this state she doesn't have enough focus to follow a movie. She was temporarily in a bad shape after previous surgeries (though not that bad as she is now) and she didn't want to watch movies then.
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by inflatableDodo on Friday August 02, 2019 @12:05PM (#20594079)
I'm very sorry to hear that, I hope I wasn't sticking my nose in too much by making the suggestion.
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by scotty79 on Friday August 02, 2019 @12:07PM (#20594108)
Of course not. Thank you. All insightful comments are welcomed. Even if they won't help us they might be read by someone else and help them.
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by razki on Friday August 02, 2019 @10:54AM (#20593431)
I never comment on HN but this story compelled me to. Stay strong, I hope life improves even a little bit for you and your SO.
Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by EliRivers on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:09PM (#20594601)
... and you have to try to make the best of it

Is this built on anything, or is this your axiom?

Re:Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years by circlefavshape on Friday August 02, 2019 @08:27AM (#20592450)
Dude, my sympathies. Really sorry to hear what you both are going through