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Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by dimitar on Monday July 29, 2019 @06:11AM (#20553033)
A carbon tax will definitely mean less driving, flying, AC and meat. And this tax can make it possible to give out vouchers so vulnerable people who cannot afford AC will not die in heat waves.

So public policy can both incentivise everyone, not only activists to make the right choices. And it can save a lot of lives.

If a suitably large group of people refuse to vote for politicians that don't support a carbon tax, cap-and-trade and other climate policies, it will lead to better outcomes.

Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by briandear on Monday July 29, 2019 @09:55AM (#20554604)
So we are near the limits of human heat tolerance and the solution is less AC? Does lowering quality of life actually help increase quality of life?

The simple solution is to build more nuclear. When energy generation doesn’t require burning things, this solves itself. A carbon neutral grid means we can use as much air conditioning as we want. I was in Rome and France last week and “less AC” would have meant vulnerable people potentially dying in the heat.

Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by mjlee on Monday July 29, 2019 @10:02AM (#20554670)
Is that actually true? How much of the impact of AC is power generation vs the inefficiency of refrigeration?
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by raxxorrax on Monday July 29, 2019 @07:39AM (#20553445)
I would only vote for it if there are tax releases in other areas because tax rate is already enormous in my country. We already have an environmental tax that was used to stuff holes in social security systems.

That said, binding environmental costs to actual prices would be terrific.

But if households only generate 1/5 of overall emissions (depending on data and negligent of consumption), we might need other mechanisms.

You can control many things through taxes, but I believe this to be inefficient. I would have no problem with paying double for fuel. But that isn't the reality for most people that are dependent on cars.

Better than nothing perhaps, but I have very low expectations for this tax.

Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by atq2119 on Monday July 29, 2019 @01:17PM (#20556947)
Pretty much all the carbon tax proposals by economists and climate activists are revenue neutral. That's the whole idea: make climate-damaging activities more expensive, and to balance it out do some combination of just lowering other taxes and investing in infrastructure that helps us cope with climate change (carbon capture, electrical grid, etc.), which creates jobs.

I'm reminded of how the German word for "tax" is "Steuer", i.e. steering/control, which encourages smarter thinking about tax policy because it acknowledges precisely this effect on incentives.

Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by Fedjmike on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:38PM (#20559718)
The comparison you make with "Steuer" is intriguing, but that's not the etymology of the word, just a coincidence. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuer#Etymologie
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by hedora on Monday July 29, 2019 @11:10AM (#20555342)
This is why cap and trade is popular. It can be made revenue neutral.
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by Barrin92 on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:17AM (#20553726)
> would only vote for it if there are tax releases in other areas because tax rate is already enormous in my country.

A carbon divided, which is to say redistributing the income of the carbon tax equally and directly to the people should at least in principle be uncontroversial because it is both socially equitable (richer people live more carbon intensive lives and thus contribute more), and it sets the right consumption incentive without taking money out of people's personal pockets (which should please conservatives).

Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by bryanlarsen on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:36AM (#20553893)
It should, in principle. Canada recently introduced a carbon tax with dividend program in which about 80% of consumers receive more in dividends than they pay out in carbon tax. Despite that, opposition is very significant. It's a crazy world.
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by Scoundreller on Monday July 29, 2019 @09:42AM (#20554478)
I’m all for carbon taxes too, but I always question the accounting for this.

Consumers pay some carbon taxes directly (e.g. while buying gasoline), but does this account for indirect carbon taxes (e.g. the natural gas used in making fertilizer to grow the food that the cow ate to make this burger?).

At the end of the day, a lot of our purchases are really paying for the energy used in its production at some level.

Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by bryanlarsen on Monday July 29, 2019 @10:04AM (#20554684)
In theory, if both the burger and the natural gas is domestic, it's fully accounted. The tax is on the natural gas so the cost shows up in the burger.

In practice, it's @#%#ed up, as usual. They didn't implement a carbon tariff, so foreign fertilizer would have been a lot cheaper than domestic fertilizer. But instead of putting a carbon tariff on foreign fertilizer, they gave domestic fertilizer a 90% exemption.

Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by gamblor956 on Monday July 29, 2019 @10:58AM (#20555245)
Tariffs are often regulated by treaties or meet with reactionary tariffs so local exemptions are usually the most practical way of dealing with imports.
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by Scoundreller on Monday July 29, 2019 @12:05PM (#20556024)
How do I get my own exemption? I’m more special than everyone else.
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by gamblor956 on Monday July 29, 2019 @06:55PM (#20560331)
Do you compete in an industry subject to some sort of excise tax or tariff? If so, then hire a lawyer to explain the existing exemptions to you.

If not, go troll somewhere else.

Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by Scoundreller on Monday July 29, 2019 @10:07PM (#20561490)
The premise is that the exemptions were selected for political reasons, and a small fish in a small industry has zero chance of getting their own exemption.
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by firethief on Monday July 29, 2019 @12:48PM (#20556593)
That's politically expedient, but if laundering carbon is as easy as exchanging goods across a border then what's the point?
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by learnstats2 on Monday July 29, 2019 @06:40AM (#20553146)
it will additionally incentivise AC manufacturers to find more carbon-efficient ways of cooling.
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by coredog64 on Monday July 29, 2019 @09:28AM (#20554358)
AC is more efficient than heating since it is just moving energy around. And yet I don’t see wailing and gnashing of teeth about heating when it is frequently accomplished by burning oil in an on-site boiler. I get the sense that it comes down to places that use AC to make the 3 horrible months of summer livable vote the “wrong” way, while places that burn oil to make the 3 horrible months of winter livable vote the “right” way.
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by briandear on Monday July 29, 2019 @09:59AM (#20554637)
Why is this being downvoted? Are those living in the liberal Northeast US ever proposing to reduce heating? Not much. Read the comments here — using “less AC” appears more frequently than “use less heat.” My point is that you have a point. Colder places lament the AC use of hotter places because they aren’t significantly proposing to limit their own quality of life, but the quality of life of people that don’t vote like them.
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by dashundchen on Monday July 29, 2019 @11:03AM (#20555291)
Many of the populous northern states (I am familiar with at least MA and NY) are heavily incentivizing weatherization, solar, and eliminating fossil fuels by switching to electric ground and air source heat pumps. Lowest hanging fruit is rural oil and propane heated houses but I expect natural gas to be targeted soon considering New York's climate goals.

Combined with the efforts to switch the grid to renewables (net-zero electric grid by 2040 and net-zero altogether by 2050) this should greatly reduce emissions coming from eating.

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/6/20/1869105...

In fact, New York has aggressively limited the expansion of natural gas pipelines and recently both ConEd and National Grid, two major gas providers, said in response they will stop expanding their network. IMO New York's energy agencies are using this to see if they can fully eliminate fossil fuels from new development and start a phase out.

https://enerknol.com/national-grid-stops-accepting-new-gas-s...

https://www.nyserda.ny.gov/All-Programs/Programs/Clean-Energ...

Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by VBprogrammer on Monday July 29, 2019 @12:01PM (#20555975)
I think you are correct, there is definitely more stigma attached to AC than there is to heating. That said, I think the use of AC to the extent that staying inside for too long is uncomfortable without putting on more clothing is probably excessive, in the same way that setting the heating so that you need to wear shorts inside would be excessive.

I think a lot of common sense has been lost in the design of homes. In the south of Europe homes are often comfortable with minimal or no air-conditioning because they have designs suitable for the climate. However, this means having small windows which aren't directly exposed to sunlight, tiled or marble floors etc.

Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by learnstats2 on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @08:25PM (#20580099)
AC is more efficient than heating since it is just moving energy around.

This claim is incompatible the Second Law of Thermodynamics: "Heat can never pass from a colder to a warmer body without some other change, connected therewith, occurring at the same time."

Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by smileysteve on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:02AM (#20553602)
If my electricity is nuclear, hydro, or wind then what Carbon is my ac inefficient at?
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by Scoundreller on Monday July 29, 2019 @10:00AM (#20554652)
If your grid is connected to other grids, reducing your electric consumption will offset other carbon consumption.
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by tsukikage on Monday July 29, 2019 @12:07PM (#20556044)
If your electricity comes from renewables, carbon tax shouldn't affect your AC use.
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by rootusrootus on Monday July 29, 2019 @09:26AM (#20554340)
And less heat, right? Doesn't that take more energy than AC?
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by panzagl on Monday July 29, 2019 @10:59AM (#20555257)
What do they do with the voucher? Fan themselves?
Re:The human body is already close to thermal limits in many... by dimitar on Monday July 29, 2019 @04:22PM (#20558968)
Afford electricity bills for Air conditioning. In some areas it will soon not be possible to sleep without air conditioning, and people can die in heat waves.