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Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by CPLX on Thursday July 25, 2019 @04:28PM (#20529313)
I mean, I don't know how to tell you guys, but from the perspective of an east coaster, the entire peninsula (including SF) looks like this. It feels like some kind of parallel universe where nothing makes sense.

Like I hear about a housing crisis in SF but I go there and there are supermarkets surrounded by parking lots in the middle of the city. There are literal big-box stores like you'd see in the suburbs adjacent to the central business district, like that Petco Safeway block near Mission Bay.

In the Embarcadero there are actual motor inns, crappy hotels with one story raised 10 feet off the ground with parking spaces below them. Like a whole bunch of them. You don't even see those in abandoned small towns any more.

You head to the beach and you go through mile after mile of outer sunset with crappy little 2 story houses and residential streets dominated by garage doors which is like the most people-unfriendly building style known to man.

Like do people know that every little private one-car garage has no benefit on a larger scale? The garage holds one car, and the curb cut prevents parking on the street in front, for a net gain of zero parking spaces.

Yet the entire city is dominated by garages at street level. And two story buildings, and mile after mile of awful zero-architecture postwar commercial properties.

Yes the painted ladies are pretty, don't bulldoze them. Landmark Lombard street and some of the other charming blocks, Sure why not. But it's a global commercial city willing to build 50+ story office towers, and unwilling to do anything about the dozens of square miles of 1-2 story unredeemable residential surrounding them.

It's insane.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by i_am_proteus on Thursday July 25, 2019 @04:42PM (#20529473)
There I was, thinking I was the only one.

It's insane. When I first got here from the east coast, I thought maybe there was some reason involving earthquake codes. And then I learned.

I used to live in NYC, a city that's had its own difficulties adding new housing, corruption in the permitting process, considering too many areas "historic." But the Bay Area is something completely different. It seems that everyone who already owns a single family home is strongly in favor of pulling up the ladder.

Perhaps too much money is riding on the existing "market value" of homes here. If zoning restrictions were relaxed, could house prices collapse? Proposition 13 can't be helping, either.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by nostrademons on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:10PM (#20529748)
I moved here from Boston.

It honestly didn't seem all that insane to me, because Boston is crazier in nearly every dimension. The peninsula at least has 3-lane boulevards with a reasonable road hierarchy and traffic light timings. Boston has cowpaths branching off in every direction, controlled by stop signs that can literally back up for miles. The peninsula has block after block of Eichlers on 1/4 acre lots. Boston has mid-rise row-houses on landfill in the Back Bay, quickly trailing off to historic old houses on 1.5 acre lots 10 minutes outside of the city. The peninsula refuses to let you put in an in-law unit or cut down a redwood tree without going through an extensive permitting process. The Boston area might refuse to let you put in new window panes if you live in a historic house (my computer teacher lived in one from the 1730s, and it still had all the original glass - which back then was hand made and tended to flow like putty - because it was considered a historic property and she couldn't modify it). The peninsula is due for a natural disaster in the next 30 years. In Boston, as my wife puts it, every winter is a natural disaster. BART has a problem with homeless dudes and property crime. The Red Line has a problem with trains losing the 3rd rail and running 20 minutes late. Caltrain electrification is stuck in limbo. The Big Dig has ceiling tiles that fall down and kill people.

Of course, the flip side of this is that Boston hasn't grown since 1950, and is around the same size as its 1910 population. San Francisco will probably meet a similar fate when the tech boom peters out.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by CydeWeys on Thursday July 25, 2019 @10:27PM (#20531863)
FYI, glass doesn't flow. That's a common myth. Modern glass making techniques are much better than older ones, and we can make flat glass panes of constant thickness. Those old screwy panes were just as screwy when they were first put in; that's as good as they could mass produce at the time.

https://engineering.mit.edu/engage/ask-an-engineer/how-does-...

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by MiroF on Thursday July 25, 2019 @07:34PM (#20530930)
I'm also coming from Boston and this take is silly.

Housing prices in Boston aren't Bay bad or even close to it.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by foobarian on Thursday July 25, 2019 @09:35PM (#20531595)
I'm coming from the Boston _area_ because I can't afford to live in Boston or Cambridge. But guess what? There are comfortably sized houses available already under $400k 20 minutes out.
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by MiroF on Friday July 26, 2019 @10:47AM (#20535179)
Exactly. Inner Boston and SF are not dissimilar, but the real difference is when you go outside the city. You can get a good house in Waltham (for instance) for relatively cheap. The same isn't true today in East Bay at least (and I don't know what other direction it would be true in).
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by rsync on Thursday July 25, 2019 @09:38PM (#20531615)
"The Boston area might refuse to let you put in new window panes if you live in a historic house ..."

That sounds like a really easy problem to solve ...

"Yes, children - of course you may play baseball in my front yard ..."

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by inferiorhuman on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:06PM (#20529703)
It's insane. When I first got here from the east coast, I thought maybe there was some reason involving earthquake codes. And then I learned.

It's actually quite the opposite. So-called soft story buildings are more dangerous in an earthquake and property owners are taking quite a while to bring them up to code. Californians just love their cars.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by ProblemFactory on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:09PM (#20529736)
> If zoning restrictions were relaxed, could house prices collapse?

I don't see how that could be the case. The property value of a plot of land on which a 50, or even 5 story building can be built is much higher than the property value of a single-family home.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by nostrademons on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:15PM (#20529792)
There's a substitution effect. If zoning restrictions are relaxed and developer turns an acre into a 50 unit condo complex, that developer reaps a huge windfall. But everyone else who owns an Eichler on a 1/4 acre has fewer buyers competing for their property.

It's sorta like when labor unions go away. The company that hires non-unionized labor at half the price and double the productivity reaps an enormous windfall. So do the employees, who were presumably in other, less well-paying jobs. Everyone else who chooses not to play the new game ends up out of a job.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by i_am_proteus on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:48PM (#20530122)
Is this correct?

Or is this correct: As housing prices rise, it becomes cost effective to replace simplexes with duplexes, threeplexes, etc., causing the value of all simplexes to rise.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by kradroy on Thursday July 25, 2019 @08:46PM (#20531316)
The latter is correct. The price per sq ft will be at parity during development. Then buyers will compete for the smaller units that replaced the SFH properties. $/sq-ft will rise and pass over to existing, neighboring SFHs.
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by maxsilver on Thursday July 25, 2019 @09:57PM (#20531705)
> If zoning restrictions are relaxed and developer turns an acre into a 50 unit condo complex, that developer reaps a huge windfall. But everyone else who owns an Eichler on a 1/4 acre has fewer buyers competing for their property.

That's not completely accurate. Yes, demand might fall, but even so price and value will still rise regardless.

If you build a 50 unit complex next door, as long as some of those 50 units sell, then everyone elses 1/4th acre will become more valuable, even if no one ever actually buys them, because land value in the US has very little to do with buyers or demand, and is exclusively valued by whatever property transactions happen to occur nearby it.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by DrScump on Friday July 26, 2019 @03:08AM (#20532934)

  land value in the US has very little to do with buyers or demand, and is exclusively valued by whatever property transactions happen to occur nearby it
I don't understand the distinction you seek to make here. Those transaction values are specifically the result of buyers and demand.

Most residential properties here could have been snapped up in 2009 for about 60% of current costs... because demand was lower. (Probably several hundred percent in areas like Mission Bay.)

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by jonny_eh on Thursday July 25, 2019 @11:55PM (#20532234)
Plus the single family home will be just as desirable. New condos are still less desirable in comparison.
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by pcwalton on Friday July 26, 2019 @11:56AM (#20535727)
Thought experiment: If 500,000 new homes were suddenly available in San Francisco tomorrow, would prices decrease?

Land value in the US obviously has to do with buyers and demand.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by CPLX on Thursday July 25, 2019 @07:40PM (#20530960)
That logic is literally ridiculous. Midtown Manhattan used to have single family homes too, now a half acre costs a hundred million dollars.
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by mktmkr on Friday July 26, 2019 @01:25AM (#20532568)
I'd like to point out this is true only if the developer held the property during the regulatory change. Otherwise the developer makes their customary razor-thin profits and it is the seller of the land who reaps the huge windfall.
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by JamesBarney on Friday July 26, 2019 @02:17PM (#20537028)
Do we care much about the price of land or do we care how much it costs for someone to live there? I believe it's the latter.

So yes the price of land would go up, but the price of livable space would fall. And the cost of livable space is what we care about with regards to affordable housing.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by MiroF on Thursday July 25, 2019 @07:35PM (#20530936)
It's just basic supply and demand
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by joe_the_user on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:24PM (#20529889)
Oddly enough, the housing structure of the SF Bay Area has a certain resemblance to ... the Boeing 737 Max. It's a system where some one parts/aspects/dimensions are kept at a certain backward (but once functional and "good") level while other parts/aspects/dimensions are automated/modernized to the hilt (basically to game regulation and so markets).

Elaborate efforts have been made to adapt the contradictory parts, efforts that worked adequately for a while but which are now coming apart, leaving a situation with no way forward at all.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by carapace on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:22PM (#20529869)
It's because we're hella young out here. Relative to the East Coast anyway (I mean, London has Roman ruins...)

Do an image search for old timey SF and you'll see: the Sunset was sand dunes until about last Tuesday, etc. Dudes used to pan for gold out by Lake Merced.

Also, this was the weirdo town. Bohemia on the Bay. Serious folk didn't really come here to be serious and sane. The old line was, "All the crazy people move to California, and all the crazy people in California move to San Francisco." To which residents add, "And all the people too crazy for San Francisco move to Berkeley."

So yeah, you've got a young town full of nuts and flakes that no one really paid much attention to until the last ~50 years or so, whadda ya expect, eh?

Things are changing though. I was over in the Inner Sunset the other day and the beautiful people were there casting me in the shade because I look too close to homeless on the hipster/homeless spectrum.

My concern is the weakening of the commitment to keeping the wild areas of the Bay Area wild. SF is the largest city with the most wilderness around it in the world. Marin Headlands, Wildcat canyon et. al., nearly half of the peninsula is forest. I saw a coyote in someone's front yard on Junipero Serra the other day not three blocks from Stonestown Mall! In a neighborhood of single family homes, FWIW.

I don't think it would be the best of all possible worlds to make the bay area look like Manhattan or Tokyo. On the other hand, it sucks that I can't afford an apartment in my home town, let alone ever own a home, despite making programmer money. I can't imagine what it would be like if I didn't have tech skills. I'd probably be living in a tent under the freeway.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by CydeWeys on Thursday July 25, 2019 @10:30PM (#20531885)
"My concern is the weakening of the commitment to keeping the wild areas of the Bay Area wild. SF is the largest city with the most wilderness around it in the world."

"I don't think it would be the best of all possible worlds to make the bay area look like Manhattan or Tokyo."

These two sentiments are in direct conflict though. Your options are to either build up or to build out. Building up will preserve the nearby wilderness; building out will see it turned into low density housing, roads, and terrible traffic congestion.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by carapace on Friday July 26, 2019 @02:33AM (#20532826)
> These two sentiments are in direct conflict though.

I know. Quoting Whitman, "I am large. I contain multitudes."

> Your options are to either build up or to build out.

Or, in a word, arcologies.

> Arcology, a portmanteau of "architecture" and "ecology", is a field of creating architectural design principles for very densely populated, ecologically low-impact human habitats.

> The term was coined in 1969 by architect Paolo Soleri, who believed that a completed arcology would provide space for a variety of residential, commercial, and agricultural facilities while minimizing individual human environmental impact. These structures have been largely hypothetical, as no arcology, even one envisioned by Soleri himself, has yet been built.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcology

If I had my druthers, I would roll up the low density stuff into arcologies and rehabilitate the old creeks that ran and still run to the bay. Use Permaculture (applied ecology) and passive design. IIRC the Australians were going to build a huge multi-acre combined solar chimney and greenhouse to generate electricity and grow food. &c.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_chimney

We have all the solutions we need (often they are decades old) we just have to clue up and get crackin'.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by refurb on Thursday July 25, 2019 @06:16PM (#20530346)
Your comment about SF being young is really true. Take a look at a 1950's picture of the east side of Twin Peaks and you'll see huge tracks of open land. This is ~2 miles from downtown. A lot of SF was built in the last 60-70 years.

And also the trend of people wanting to live in SF is a pretty recent phenomenon. The population of SF in 2000 was the same as it was in the 1950's. People were leaving SF in droves 40 years ago.

Cities can't just turn on a dime.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by laurencerowe on Thursday July 25, 2019 @09:59PM (#20531717)
While this is true of SF itself the Bay Area as whole has been growing at a steady million per decade (one and a bit San Franciscos) for the past 70 years.

Other urban areas undergoing growth seem to have done much better by allowing more density. Unfortunately the California tax system incentivizes municipalities to build office space over housing. With the Bay Area's patchwork local organization and no metropolitan level layer of governance local municipalities instead play beggar-thy-neighbour as they promote only development that expands their tax base while the burdens of providing schools etc. falls to the municipality next door.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by entee on Thursday July 25, 2019 @06:45PM (#20530567)
Speaking of the painted ladies, a clear example of how completely dysfunctional the market is, there's been a vacant lot ON Alamo Square, less than a block for the painted ladies for years.

https://goo.gl/maps/7iW3oiqN3FcPhVXq6

Who owns it? Why is this still not housing or at least something? Who knows! There's a vacant boarded up mansion/victorian multiunit building on Grove as well that has been that way forever as well.

Also years ago there was a natural grocery store that closed on Divisadero. There was some controversy but the council decided to let it become a Core Power Yoga. That was almost a year ago. Zero progress has been made on building that studio, still an empty shop front.

http://www.sfweekly.com/news/with-corepower-divisadero-loses...

I don't have a strong opinion on that fight, but it's insane that these things take so long. I don't understand it, I've been meaning to go to a neighborhood meeting to ask, but I've been busy the rare nights they happen.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by wahern on Thursday July 25, 2019 @09:04PM (#20531411)
Maybe stuck in regulatory limbo, not unlike most projects in the city? https://socketsite.com/archives/2011/03/802_804_808_steiner_...

Seems there was once a school there: https://sf.curbed.com/2012/5/31/10366476/painted-ladies-have...

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by natecham on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:34AM (#20533267)
Funny enough, it seems the vacant Victorian on Grove is making some progress, saw some scaffolding up around it this evening.

http://www.sfweekly.com/news/news-news/entropy-on-grove-stre... (2017) elaborates on why its been vacant, seems like the owner doesn't have the funds/desire to make it habitable. Also mentions how much red tape exists to develop in the neighborhood in the last couple paragraphs, maybe the owner doesn't feel like enduring that adventure.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by inferiorhuman on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:00PM (#20529648)
I mean, I don't know how to tell you guys, but from the perspective of an east coaster, the entire peninsula looks like this. It feels like some kind of parallel universe where nothing makes sense.

The Peninsula is bland and awful. Plenty of affluent folks that just like to fuck with people (a.k.a. Atherton and the NIMBY's asinine fight against electrifying Caltrain). Plenty of folks (a.k.a. Brisbane) that like to pretend they're rich and only want to develop commercial property and leave the housing to SF.

But... the Bay Area is incredibly provincial. San Mateo county (most of the peninsula) is not San Francisco.

Like I hear about a housing crisis in SF but I go there and there are supermarkets surrounded by parking lots in the middle of the city. There are literal big-box stores like you'd see in the suburbs adjacent to the central business district, like that Petco Safeway block near Mission Bay.

Part if it is that there are chain retail bans in many neighborhoods, but the other part is where are you going to put the big stores? Cities in San Mateo county fight tooth and nail over the big box stores (see the Target in Colma directly across the highway from the Target in Daly City). Retail = tax revenue. Middle class jobs = less tax revenue. San Francisco can afford to levy payroll taxes and whatnot, but other cities don't have that prestige.

You head to the beach and you go through mile after mile of outer sunset with crappy little 2 story houses and residential streets dominated by garage doors which is like the most people-unfriendly building style known to man.

You're starting to see more multi-unit housing in the Sunset, but again SF is not the peninsula. As bad as things are in San Francisco, things are far worse to the south. The garages are often two car sized and likely converted into illegal residential units.

Like do people know that every little private one-car garage has no benefit on a larger scale? The garage holds one car, and the curb cut prevents parking on the street in front, for a net gain of zero parking spaces.

Curb cuts make walking in SF worse than it has to be, but try walking in the suburbs where there are sometimes no sidewalks, higher speed limits, and wider roads to cross on foot.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by H8crilA on Thursday July 25, 2019 @04:49PM (#20529537)
Not just east coasters can subscribe to this thinking. A citizen of pretty much any other country can.

Compare with Hong Kong. Right off the Victoria Peak there are 40+ story apartment buildings. There's forest to one side of them, and more 40+ story buildings to the other side.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by scrumbledober on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:05PM (#20529700)
You don't need to live outside of the bay area to think this way. I've grown up on the peninsula and think it's absurd. I'm a software engineer and if I ever want to buy a house I feel like I'll be forced to relocate away from family and hometown. My friend's 90 year old grandmother constantly complains about new housing development in the town we live in, but then also questions why my friend has to live with her and his cousin had to move away. Stop voting to make this area too expensive to live in and your younger family won't have to move away.
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by MiroF on Thursday July 25, 2019 @07:41PM (#20530966)
Every single homeowner I've talked to here has complained about the housing crisis, yet has been opposing development near their house.

Incredible that people can be so willfully blind that they don't see how their own actions are contributing to the crisis. It's a real tragedy of the commons

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by foobarian on Thursday July 25, 2019 @09:49PM (#20531666)
If there was a law aggressively limiting the property tax rate, skyrocketing demand, and I happened to be in a house I got in the 70s... you better bet I'd be opposing development too.
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by MiroF on Friday July 26, 2019 @10:46AM (#20535174)
Sure, but you wouldn't be bemoaning the housing crisis.
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by brent_noorda on Thursday July 25, 2019 @04:51PM (#20529561)
The cities of the Peninsula voted against getting a BART subway line decades ago, leaving them in the car-dependent, flat suburbs of the 60s
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by ImplicitNone on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:20PM (#20529841)
That's not true! Peninsula voters never got the chance to vote on the November 1962 BART referendum.

Instead, on April 12, 1962 the San Mateo County Board of Supervisors opted out, citing high costs and concerns over shoppers leaving their county for stores in Downtown San Francisco.

Keep in mind that Silicon Valley did not exist yet. There was no support for BART in San Mateo County-grassroots or otherwise. Many Peninsula civic leaders were also against it–including JR Clinton owner of the San Mateo Times (predecessor of San Mateo Daily Journal). Also opposing BART was David Bohannon the developer of the Hillsdale Shopping Mall, Tom Casey of the San Mateo Co Development Associations. They, and the San Mateo Times, published Op-eds arguing that BART was not needed; instead more freeway lanes was the proposed solution to congestion woes.

The neighboring Santa Clara County's obsession with building and publicly financing the Expressway System (Page Mill, Oregon, Central, Montague, San Tomas, Lawrence, Capitol) didn't help either.

You can read more about it in BART: The Dramatic History of the Bay Area Rapid Transit System by Michael C. Healy.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by DrScump on Friday July 26, 2019 @02:37AM (#20532840)

  the Expressway System (Page Mill, Oregon, Central, Montague, San Tomas, Lawrence, Capitol)
Don't forget Southwest Expressway, that sad little stretch from Stokes(?) to 280 south of San Jose City College.

As for San Mateo county, Caltrain already served as an artery through it. San Mateo county residents would have been used as cash cows for SF to Western Alameda county, just like eastern Alameda County has been for five decades.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by inferiorhuman on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:04PM (#20529684)
The cities of the Peninsula voted against getting a BART subway line decades ago, leaving them in the car-dependent, flat suburbs of the 60s

BART is a basket case of incompetence on its own. SF residents were largely willing to support an infill station at 30th and Mission, but BART stuck its thumbs up its ass and eventually built a half-billion dollar cable car to the Oakland airport (ripping up recent renovations to the street along the way).

San Mateo residents bought into BART in the 90s, but as they've learned public transit (BART especially) is a cost not profit center so the regional (SamTrans) service got gutted to fund BART (whose ridership numbers consistently lag predictions).

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by DrScump on Friday July 26, 2019 @02:41AM (#20532859)

  a half-billion dollar cable car to the Oakland airport
... which was suspended mid-construction for several years.

The empty trestles over Hegenberger were reminiscent of the "Freeway to Nowhere" (the 280/680/101 interchange in San Jose).

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by api on Thursday July 25, 2019 @04:33PM (#20529377)
It's quite sane if you bought property in the 60s-90s and are riding property appreciation to fortune.
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by yks on Thursday July 25, 2019 @09:30PM (#20531560)
And then you what, die in the appreciated property? If you want to make money, it's already very profitable for you to sell the house for condo development but no one is doing that. Instead residents write open letters about how they moved here in 1976 and under no circumstances will allow their neighborhood to be different than back then.
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by siphon22 on Thursday July 25, 2019 @09:37PM (#20531612)
>Instead residents write open letters about how they moved here in 1976 and under no circumstances will allow their neighborhood to be different than back then.

I think this is the hardest thing to reconcile. I mean it's easy to get riled up against some rich white NIMBYs doing this kind of thing, but now replace those rich whites with x minority like Mexican-Americans who have lived in their Mexican-American majority Southern Californian neighborhood all their life in the same homes they've always been in. Imagine ripping on them for trying to preserve their neighborhood and therefore their culture. And for what? To make it possible for more people to move in and potentially make things worse for the people already there? If it's a minority-majority neighborhood, making it possible for more whites to move in is gentrification. How do you argue for that?

I'm not saying I agree with any of this by the way, just playing devil's advocate.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by yks on Thursday July 25, 2019 @10:01PM (#20531729)
Btw, the letter I used as an example was definitely not from a minority person and not about SoCal neighborhood.

Regardless, these people are not "natives" who got SF entirely in its current state from God, it was growing up, as prosperous cities do, and neighborhoods were changing. So why should it stop its development in 1976, why are people who moved in to SF back then entitled to this? If you ask me, this is becoming uncannily feudal.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by siphon22 on Thursday July 25, 2019 @10:12PM (#20531794)
Personally, I am with you and don't believe they are entitled anything.

But essentially this basically comes down to gentrification vs preserving culture. Do we value cities as money-making assembly lines where all the workers are replaceable or do we value cities as a living thing, with the culture(s) as their bloodline that makes those cities what they are and gives them their appeal? Do I want to keep my neighborhood as it is, for my children to grow up as I did, or should I just let anyone come and change it, for better or worse?

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by DrScump on Friday July 26, 2019 @02:52AM (#20532888)

  the letter I used as an example was definitely not from a minority person
You didn't give a single example, let alone one where you know the ethnicity of the author.
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by DrScump on Friday July 26, 2019 @02:49AM (#20532882)
Fortune?

The problem is recognizing that appreciation without weathering the crushing taxes. Proposition 5 (portability of Jarvis Gann property tax bases) would have helped, but it was voted down.

Take a single person with $1 million in appreciation. $750K gets hit with (unindexed!) Federal capital gains, full CA income taxes with surtaxes "for the rich" (likewise unindexed), and you'd be starting over with respect to property tax basis (with a few exceptions in 9 counties).

You could eventually do a 1031, but you'd have to move somewhere in the meantime... probably out of state.

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by kalessin on Thursday July 25, 2019 @04:57PM (#20529630)
I'm sad that the SFCHA proposition [1] could not be petitioned successfully for last year's ballot in San Francisco. I thought it was an interesting one, with a progressive property tax scheme that would be used by the city to acquire housing for people under the median income (among other things).

[1] https://www.sfcommunityhousingact.com/press/landmark-housing...

Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by cryptozeus on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:03PM (#20529674)
May be earthquake fear plays into not building too many high stories building!
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by tssva on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:57PM (#20530197)
Outside of the older large northeast cities, New York, Boston, Philadelphia, etc, this is pretty much the norm for much of the east coast as well.
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by jjtheblunt on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:05PM (#20529699)
So true, so well described, so depressing, and just true.
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by MiroF on Thursday July 25, 2019 @07:31PM (#20530909)
Thank you!!!
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by MiroF on Thursday July 25, 2019 @07:32PM (#20530910)
okay! so i'm not insane!!
Re:Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California by zippergz on Thursday July 25, 2019 @06:49PM (#20530595)
I agree with almost all of this, but in a city as crime-riddled as San Francisco, there is a huge difference between parking on the street and in a garage. I get that the way the garages are built and arranged is beyond suboptimal, but lets not act as if having those same cars parked on the street would be equally as good.