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Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by gambiting on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @01:43PM (#20517636)
The thing that bothered me the most when I visited North America was that attitude that you absolutely have to tip or otherwise you are some gigantic asshole. We went to a completely average restaurant, had completely average food that was possibly microwaved, the staff was average or below average at best.....and we all added like 15-20% tip at the end. I was just like......why? "Oh because you are a massive dick if you don't tip". I do occasionally tip in the UK when the service is really extraordinary, but feeling like you have to tip, almost completely detached from the actual quality of what you're getting.....that's bizzaire to me. And don't get me started on the nonsense that is tipping delivery drivers for what is effectively 5 seconds long interaction.
Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by RHSeeger on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @02:09PM (#20517949)
Bear in mind that the food costs less at that restaurant _because_ the wait staff is paid less _because_ it is assumed you are tipping. As such, yes, you are a bad person for not tipping; you are getting the benefit of lower food prices in exchange for tipping.
Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by mabbo on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @02:52PM (#20518391)
Can you imagine if all stores worked this way?

Hey, the pricetag on the shirt at Walmart says $10, but you should really pay $13 because otherwise they'll just not pay their staff. But hey, your choice, you can (if you choose) cause their staff to have no money for food for their families.

The problem here isn't the person not tipping, it's the broken culture where ensuring a livable wage for the poorest in society is a choice the wealthy get to make based on how they feel today.

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by SilasX on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @02:47PM (#20518331)
It's not that simple. In addition to that effect, you also have the dynamic that people can undertip [1] some amount without consequence. Meaning that price + customary tip will actually have to be higher than the average untipped price, since it doesn't have to make up for the defectors.

[1] specifically, that means tipping under the average and/or in accordance with a lower scale or tougher standards than is generally expected.

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by tetraca on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @03:02PM (#20518485)
That doesn't make sense. You aren't getting lower food prices at all if you are obligated to tip. Rather, the actual prices of restaurant food items are just undermarked by 15-20% of their actual cost.
Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by RHSeeger on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @03:39PM (#20518871)
> the actual prices of restaurant food items are just undermarked by 15-20% of their actual cost.

Right, and it's undermarked because you are expected to tip.

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by gambiting on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @03:44PM (#20518914)
But you said that you get the "benefit" of lower prices - but I just don't see that benefit if it's mandatory to then tip 15%. Whatever reduction in price you're getting you'll pay in tips, so as a customer you're getting shafted either way. No?
Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by RHSeeger on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:11PM (#20519765)
You're not getting shafted. If you tip, you're paying the same amount as if there weren't tips and the prices were raised to account for it. There's nothing "shafted" about "paying the same amount".

The only differences are - You can choose to pay less if things aren't good, or pay more if things are great. - If you're someone that is heavily impacted by other people's opinions, then you may feel bad tipping less. But all that means is that you don't get one of the benefits.

You get the "benefit" of lower prices... and you're expected to tip to balance the scales.

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by Scoundreller on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @03:13PM (#20518617)
Usually the income isn’t being reported by the tip-earner/takers, and you’re not paying sales tax on the service received.
Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by tetraca on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @03:18PM (#20518663)
The former is only going to be true if you pay them in cash; I don't believe credit tips are so easy to hide. The latter is inconsequential.
Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by Scoundreller on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @04:19PM (#20519223)
Despite the paper trail, local details of audits I know of, indicated that workers still underreport.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjA...

Anecdotally, it remains true.

Tips don’t go on the official pay reports that go to the Canadian government since it isn’t actually employment income paid by the employer.

Why would sales taxes be inconsequential?

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by gambiting on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @04:40PM (#20519422)
I guess because you're only not paying sales tax on the tip portion of the payment - so if the sales tax is say 10%, your bill was a $100 and you left a $10 tip, you're only saving $1 on the sales tax.
Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by tetraca on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @04:58PM (#20519619)
And if that mere dollar would influence you on whether or not you were going to go to the restaurant, you probably shouldn't have ever been going to the restaurant.
Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by Scoundreller on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @09:39PM (#20521883)
It still means an industry is paying ~85% of the sales taxes it should.

Overall, businesses will charge what they can. And if they don’t have to pay taxes, they can keep that $ for themselves.

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by traderjane on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @02:39PM (#20518249)
Tipping is what sustains the practice of underpaying.
Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by Beldin on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @02:57PM (#20518448)
Which would be a factor if the sole reason for picking a particular restaurant is lowest price. That's virtually never - if it is, go home and cook. It's cheaper.

The whole tipping system is insane: I'll allow you to provide services in my restaurant and if the customers like you, perhaps you'll earn some money.

I'm still waiting for the restaurant holders to come up with the idea of charging for this unique opportunity. "Don't think of it as paying to be allowed to work, think of it as investing in your revenue-generating activities! !"

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by RHSeeger on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @03:45PM (#20518932)
> Which would be a factor if the sole reason for picking a particular restaurant is lowest price.

Actually, it wouldn't matter if lowest price was the sole factor for picking a particular restaurant. Because all restaurants would be lowering their prices by the same general percentage.

However, it does impact the choice of whether or not to go out to eat.

Unless you're talking about the case where some restaurants discourage tipping (and charge more) but others don't. In which case, there's many cases of that happening and the restaurants closing or switching back. Because price, which not the sole factor, can be a very important one. It certainly impacts my choice when I go out to eat.

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by Scoundreller on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @03:11PM (#20518608)
Not just lower food prices, but a smaller tax base and possibly inflated student loans.
Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by jvagner on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @02:04PM (#20517889)
I've spent time in a lot of countries, and:

You tip in the US because the employees are paid a sum that assumes tips are coming. You can pay less than minimum wage because the actual compensation comes from tips.

Of course, this is different in other countries...

And yes, 15% is standard for "acceptable" service and food. You can tip less if you really have a complaint, but with the proliferation of Yelp and Google Reviews, it's easy enough to avoid bad places.

On a road trip, that can be a little different, but...

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by madeofpalk on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @02:12PM (#20517978)
> You tip in the US because the employees are paid a sum that assumes tips are coming.

This type of justification has always seemed very Stockholm Syndrome-y to me. This is not a valid or acceptable reason.

You tip in the US because everyone is complicit in the horrendous industrial relation laws.

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by chowells on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @03:04PM (#20518520)
You tip in the US because your only other personal alternative is hurting people who are in vulnerable jobs. It's not Stockholm syndrome, it's a hostage situation.
Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by Scoundreller on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @03:16PM (#20518649)
Some of those vulnerable jobs pay incredibly well.

Part of their vulnerability does come from near worthless job-injury/termination/severance pay because, on paper, take-home pay is far less than actual.

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by lotsofpulp on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @02:52PM (#20518396)
I think more accurately, a business owner cannot pay less than minimum wage because actual compensation tips are coming, you MAY pay less than minimum wage IF wages + tips is at least minimum wage, otherwise employer is on the hook for the non-tipped amount.

However, even in the jurisdictions that don't have a minimum wage exemption for tipped positions (such as Oregon), you're still socially expected to tip.

At this point, the only thing tips are good for is letting business owners pay staff less than what they would normally have to, which the staff doesn't mind because they get to evade taxes on cash tips, and they sometimes make more money than if they were to be paid a wage and didn't get tipped. The customer gets the raw end of the deal as they frequently overpay.

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by Scoundreller on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @03:14PM (#20518632)
> I think more accurately, a business owner cannot pay less than minimum wage

In food service, never say “cannot”!

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by FireBeyond on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:23PM (#20519893)
I always hear this. It's blame shifting. Food service workers are the first to foist the burden, responsibility on to the customer for their inability or lack of willingness to protest / report their employers illegal behavior.

It's not my role as a customer to support workers at a paper mill with lax safety standards because the workers won't go to OSHA, why should it be my role to ensure you have a livable wage because you won't go to to L&I to report wage theft/other practices?

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by Scoundreller on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @06:04PM (#20520389)
I’m in a left leaning jurisdiction, and the labour board doesn’t do a very good job of investigating these complaints.

And if they do award you back-pay, it may still be on you to follow through on collecting.

There is big structural barriers for the system to work in favour of employees that aren’t being paid properly.

Re:DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar by Scoundreller on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @03:11PM (#20518596)
France is like that too.

Once with my hosts, I took care of the dining bill myself. Just when I thought I figured it all out, they’re like “oh, that was the owner of the restaurant with the cheque at the end, you really don’t have to give him a tip”.

D’oh.