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Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by rayiner on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @09:54PM (#20511802)
There is nothing, except Chicago’s suburbs, within about 300 miles of Chicago in every direction.

Also, our train system has more than funding parity with roads. Road spending is about $175 billion per year, about half of which isn’t recovered from use fees, for 5 trillion passenger miles. That’s about $0.02 per mile subsidy. Amtrak’s capital expenditures is about $900 million per year, which comes directly from Congress. (Ticket revenue only goes to operating costs.) that’s about $0.13 per passenger mile.

For a guy driving 300 miles, that cost the government $6.00 in road construction and maintenance. For the guy to train that same distance costs the government $39.

Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by tptacek on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:08PM (#20511876)
You mean besides Milwaukee, Madison, Grand Rapids, Indianapolis, Cedar Rapids, St Louis, Cincinatti and Toledo?

That's more people than Chicago itself.

If you take Chicagoland as an endpoint and not the city boundaries, Des Moines is also within 300 miles.

Transcontinental high speed rail is, I agree strongly with your subtextual argument, a pipe dream. But regional HSR in the midwest would make a lot of sense.

Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by ChickeNES on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:12PM (#20511892)
You forgot Detroit, and Louisville, and almost in spitting distance of Minneapolis
Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by tptacek on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:14PM (#20511905)
Oh, you're right! My brain always stops at Ann Arbor, which I thought was too small to include.
Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by pdonis on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:30PM (#20512195)
Too small? Hey! Ann Arbor is nice, I lived there for about 8 years.

But I can totally understand stopping your brain at Ann Arbor if the alternative is to go on to Detroit...

Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by tptacek on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:39PM (#20512225)
I lived there for 4 and love the place, but I grew up in Chicago, and Ann Arbor is not a city. :)
Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by wglb on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:26PM (#20511946)
I hear that happens a lot around the beginning of April.
Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by gok on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:32PM (#20512200)
Honestly I'd start with high frequency, non-high-speed rail. With no new track or stations, a lot of routes would be competitive with driving if they just ran more often and reliably.
Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by tptacek on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:34PM (#20512210)
One problem is that the rail routes themselves are incredibly expensive; they involve rights of way through valuable urban land and across multiple states. If you're going to invest billions in new passenger rail routes, you need the ridership to fund it, and if you're running the kinds of routes Amtrak does today (outside of Acela), you're not getting those riders.

One reason existing tracks and routes don't run that frequently is that there aren't the passengers to make them worthwhile. Another is that those tracks are also used for freight.

Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by dredmorbius on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @01:28AM (#20512565)
I'm starting to realise that a major war (and frequently being on the (or a) losing side) is a strong prerequisite for establishing a strong rail network.

Otherwise land values rise too high and fast to establish rights of way.

Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by gok on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @08:20PM (#20521489)
The Swiss would disagree, and for that matter what other country hasn't had a major war?
Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by dredmorbius on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @08:38PM (#20521588)
The idea is my own, and not fully rigorous, but there are two general cases for rail infrastructure: de novo development amidst industrialisation, generally lower speed (80 mph max), and post-war (or post-occupation) development and expansion. Note that "prerequisite" != "sufficient requirement", and "strong" == notable, but not essential. Complex systems in reality are multidimensional.

The British and US rail systems were developed as industrialisation progressed, notably IR2 (coal, steam, iron) and IR3 (steel, electricity, precision).

The US rail system was further developed in the wake of depopulation, genocide, and land appropriation from the indigenous tribal peoples. Governmental land grants to railroads were a major funding mechanism.

Development of HSR has tended to be a Post-WWII phenomenon, originating in Japan, then France, Germany, elsewhere in Europe (though generally not the UK), and recently, China.

The usual factor cited has been density, which matters. But both national economic policy and rights-of-way acquisition costs are massive factors, which the more free-market, strong-private propert rights regimes of the US and UK resist.

Wikipedia's list of HSR systems excludes Switzerland, though lines are presently under construction there (notably GBT): including Belgium, China, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Israel, Italy, Japan, Morocco, The Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Russia, Saudi Arabia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Taiwan, the United Kingdom, the United States, Uzbekistan, and Turkey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail

Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by closeparen on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @12:20AM (#20512345)
Chicago has existing rail rights of way to several of those places already (Milwaukee and St. Louis routes are both quite popular).
Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by tptacek on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @12:30AM (#20512372)
Yes, I've taken the Amtrak to MKE before. Amtrak doesn't own those tracks. Canadian Pacific does.
Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by 013a on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:54PM (#20512060)
> There is nothing, except Chicago’s suburbs, within about 300 miles of Chicago in every direction.

My lord, what?! Three of the top 25 largest cities in the entire US are within 300 miles of Chicago (Columbus, Indianapolis, Detroit), and the Twin Cities (3rd largest metropolitan area in the US, larger than Chicago itself) are only 350 miles away.

Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by willbw on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:23PM (#20512169)
I'm nitpicking but Chicago is significantly larger (if you are talking metropolitan areas)

Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-WI MSA 9,498,716

Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI MSA 3,629,190

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_statistic...

Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by mulmen on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:17PM (#20511912)
That's a very convenient way to define parity. If we funded railroads at 175bn per year what would be subsidy come to? Presumably there would be a lot more passengers at that level.
Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by rayiner on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:11PM (#20512121)
Most of our rail network, outside the northeast corridor, is already vastly underutilized. Roads get more funding because that's what people use, and that's what's most convenient for 95% of people (who don't live in the downtown core of a major city) to use.

But regardless, you can get an idea from the EU. EU rail subsidies amount to 73 billion euro annually. EU rail carried 465 billion passenger-kilometers in 2017, or 300 billion passenger miles. That's a subsidy of $0.24 euro per passenger mile, even worse than Amtrak.

Roads are just really cheap to build and maintain. A 6-lane interstate highway costs $11 million per mile in urban-ish areas: http://blog.midwestind.com/cost-of-building-road. It's going to cost $1.4 billion to add four lanes to the 35 miles of the BW Parkway (which goes through a dense urban area connecting two major cities). At $40 million per mile, that's 1/6 of what it cost to build the Metro Silver line through less dense areas in an existing freeway median. That's 1/9 the per-mile cost of the purple line, a light rail line that mostly travels at grade without its own right of way.

Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by brianpgordon on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @03:49AM (#20513102)
I know you probably realize this but I think it's worth pointing out that even though it's cheap for the government to maintain roads, the total cost of transporting people by car on those roads includes much more than just the roads. Of course, it's politically difficult for the government to ask people to spend less on their cars and give the money to it instead so it can more efficiently and cleanly transport them by rail.
Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by tptacek on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:19PM (#20511924)
The point of the exercise is to look at air passenger statistics to get a broad sense of what the high watermark of usage would be, since air travel is the dominant way of navigating the continental US.
Re:My 300 Mile Lyft Ride From Chicago to Bradford by pdonis on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:33PM (#20512205)
> air travel is the dominant way of navigating the continental US.

That's because, even with all its faults, averaged over all travelers it beats the heck out of all the other alternatives for trips that would take more than a few hours by car or train. Scalzi's experience, as messed up as it was, is an outlier.