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Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by whatshisface on Thursday July 18, 2019 @11:01AM (#20470524)
Law doesn't come from (or shouldn't come from) unqualified legislators guessing about what the future will be like and what problems will be there. Law comes from when somebody has a grievance against somebody else, and society steps in to resolve it.

Could you imagine how bad it would be if Congress got excited about the potential for internet crime in 1985, tried to guess the form of the problems that would arise, and then wrote laws banning and permitting things that they thought would lead to trouble? There is no way somebody back then could predict which situations would lead to trouble decades later.

The best way to deal with space would probably be to let judges stretch earth law (property rights, whatever) to produce as much justice as possible, and then modifying the laws once the lessons had been borne out.

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by rhcom2 on Thursday July 18, 2019 @12:02PM (#20471177)
> Could you imagine how bad it would be if Congress got excited about the potential for internet crime in 1985, tried to guess the form of the problems that would arise, and then wrote laws banning and permitting things that they thought would lead to trouble?

Didn't they try to do that with 1984's Computer Fraud and Abuse Act?

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by moftz on Thursday July 18, 2019 @12:56PM (#20471717)
Breaking into computer systems was already something that was happening then. Maybe they went a little overboard with the wording but it's not like Congress invented hacking.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by wyldfire on Thursday July 18, 2019 @01:30PM (#20472082)
> Maybe they went a little overboard with the wording but it's not like Congress invented hacking.

Believe it or not but CFAA would likely have not come about if not for the classic film "WarGames" [1].

[1] https://books.google.com/books?id=7rBLCZuEOswC&pg=PA38&lpg=P...

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by bpchaps on Thursday July 18, 2019 @01:21PM (#20471979)
A little overbroad is somewhat of an understatement..
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by DuskStar on Thursday July 18, 2019 @01:07PM (#20471837)
Instead, they outlawed visiting google.com (by a strict reading of "unauthorized access")
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by stcredzero on Thursday July 18, 2019 @12:45PM (#20471604)
Could you imagine how bad it would be if Congress got excited about the potential for internet crime in 1985, tried to guess the form of the problems that would arise, and then wrote laws banning and permitting things that they thought would lead to trouble?

About as well as Korea's government picking the crypto businesses should use in 1996:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/elaineramirez/2016/11/30/south-...

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by crsv on Thursday July 18, 2019 @04:03PM (#20473429)
Could you imagine how bad it would be if Congress got excited about the potential for internet crime in 1985, tried to guess the form of the problems that would arise, and then wrote laws banning and permitting things that they thought would lead to trouble? There is no way somebody back then could predict which situations would lead to trouble decades later.

You mean like everyone who's talking about AI policy right now?

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by JoeSamoa on Thursday July 18, 2019 @09:01PM (#20475418)
There have been people who have predicted exactly the direction we are headed like Richard Stallman.

I think though that the number of people with that kind of vision and foresight are few.

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by dahfizz on Thursday July 18, 2019 @10:07PM (#20475666)
> I think though that the number of people with that kind of vision and foresight are few.

It also often comes from domain experts, and almost never from politicians.

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by m463 on Thursday July 18, 2019 @10:58PM (#20475854)
It might be interesting to see what RMS is predicting right now.

I have a friend who participates in superforecasting. I should pay more attention.

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by themacguffinman on Thursday July 18, 2019 @04:41PM (#20473732)
It's just as ridiculous to do so in AI.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by BeefySwain on Thursday July 18, 2019 @11:17AM (#20470693)
So this sounds great in theory, but there are a number of ways that I can think of where it falls short.

Tragedy of the commons issues are ones that often largely too late to easily solve by the time enough public pressure has built up to force legislative oversight. Social injustice issues are the same.

That being said, I agree that overzealous legislators making pot shots at potential issues is not a good solution either. My thought would be meet halfway with predictive laws with sunset clauses? That way, if a mistake is made, it will be undone in a predictable timescale without the need to get an oft deadlocked congress to take action.

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by whatshisface on Thursday July 18, 2019 @11:24AM (#20470779)
Laws aren't so easy to sunset even if they have sunset clauses. Whoever benefits from the legislative mistakes will grow to be more powerful than whoever is being pinched by them, and then they'll lobby like nothing else to keep the laws the same. One example would be H&R block, which was created by a complex tax code and works very hard to keep it that way.

As for the tragedy of the commons, if your mining operation negatively impacts mine by messing up a shared resource, I can sue you right away. The lack of a legal framework doesn't mean that everything is legal, at least under US tradition; it means that the civil courts decide.

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by ajmurmann on Thursday July 18, 2019 @02:20PM (#20472555)
> As for the tragedy of the commons, if your mining operation negatively impacts mine by messing up a shared resource, I can sue you right away. The lack of a legal framework doesn't mean that everything is legal, at least under US tradition; it means that the civil courts decide.

This is only true though for direct damages that ideally are measurable in a monetary value. Are there cases where it helped keeping goods in the commons. I for one would love to sue everyone who fishes in the ocean because I'd rather watch the fish and sleep well at night knowing the ocean isn't being ruined. Simpler and less controversial example would be pollution of the air we are all breathing.

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by ls612 on Thursday July 18, 2019 @04:14PM (#20473518)
The good news is that most of these commons issues are related to ecosystems on earth, which are blissfully absent in space.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by ajmurmann on Thursday July 18, 2019 @04:24PM (#20473599)
I'm curious to see if or how long that will hold true. We already have been seeing outcry over light pollution caused by SpaceX massive satellite formation.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by antepodius on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:41PM (#20474661)
I'd say low earth orbit is qualitatively different from, say, an asteroid somewhere.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by throwaway2048 on Thursday July 18, 2019 @02:44PM (#20472806)
Who do i sue over global warming?
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by kuschku on Thursday July 18, 2019 @12:02PM (#20471174)
That’s one legal concept, and one that’s consistent with common law: law is made through court rulings and decisions.

But it’s not the only legal concept, nor the most dominant or best, and in civil law systems, it’s required that all law be available and readable for free for the public, which means law has to be written into laws, and can’t be defined through court rulings.

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by staticautomatic on Thursday July 18, 2019 @12:07PM (#20471230)
The U.S. has both statutory and common law. They're not mutually exclusive.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by kuschku on Thursday July 18, 2019 @12:17PM (#20471334)
True, but in civil law systems, with minor exceptions, only statutory law counts. Why should the US system dominate in space?

Another question is: why should the US decide what happens in space? That’s quite an imperialistic view on the world.

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by simonh on Thursday July 18, 2019 @01:10PM (#20471867)
From a practical point of view, it's likely that much space law will be decided by the countries that send stuff into space. That seems reasonable since they have a clear vested interest in protecting their citizens, the possessions of their citizens and regulating the activities of their citizens.

That's not really imperialism, just a matter of responsibility. Clearly the US and any other space going nation should be held responsible for the activities of it's citizens and enterprises in space as elsewhere, and has responsibilities towards them as well.

Where that line of reasoning reaches the end of it's tether is when we come to consider property rights over pre-existing assets and territory in space.

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by why_only_15 on Thursday July 18, 2019 @12:24PM (#20471416)
staticautomatic isn't saying the US system should necessarily be dominant, they're just pointing out that the two systems aren't mutually exclusive.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by kuschku on Thursday July 18, 2019 @12:52PM (#20471667)
I’m not saying they are, but it is a question that presents itself given the context.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by staticautomatic on Thursday July 18, 2019 @12:25PM (#20471424)
I'm not saying it should. I'm just saying that we don't face a choice between one or the other.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by dd36 on Thursday July 18, 2019 @01:30PM (#20472083)
Is it much different than the laws of the sea? Sometimes laws spur innovation. If the law is: first one to establish a base owns it then there will be a lot of effort put into establishing a base.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by fuzzfactor on Saturday July 20, 2019 @09:02AM (#20485494)
According to one of the earliest space lawyers in the '80's, maritime law is largely the foundation.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by elihu on Thursday July 18, 2019 @10:09PM (#20475671)
Then the question becomes: what counts as a "base" and how much of the surrounding land or other relevant resources are deemed to belong to the base?

Personally, I think land ownership claims around unmanned probes, rovers, and stationary facilities should be kept small, and claims around manned homesteads should not be more than about a mile radius or so, probably less. In the beginning, I think it's good to have policies that encourage settlements with different owners to be located close together, without anyone becoming a real-estate baron. The best land should go to those who have the ability to actually use it, not real-estate speculators.

See also: https://xkcd.com/2125/ as an example of how land claims shouldn't work.

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by dd36 on Thursday July 18, 2019 @11:45PM (#20476020)
Yea, I would say continuous occupation by natural persons for a certain amount of time.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by milesskorpen on Thursday July 18, 2019 @11:59AM (#20471151)
Jurisdiction might prove a challenge here (state/federal courts?) but we already deal with this kind of things on oceans so I'm sure we'll muddle through like we usually do.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by T-A on Thursday July 18, 2019 @12:58PM (#20471733)
> The best way to deal with space would probably be to let judges stretch earth law

Step 0: Which ones? US judges? Chinese judges? Maybe Saudi ones?

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by m463 on Thursday July 18, 2019 @11:01PM (#20475863)
> let judges stretch earth law (property rights, whatever)

Time to churn out those cornucopia machines.

Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by chromeguy66 on Thursday July 18, 2019 @10:30PM (#20475746)
This seems like the classic case of common law against civil law.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by nerdponx on Thursday July 18, 2019 @11:15AM (#20470669)
Isn't that pretty much what the US Constitution was?
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by whatshisface on Thursday July 18, 2019 @11:31AM (#20470858)
It would have been if the US was the first country.
Re:Space law is inadequate for the boom in human activity there by taejo on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:07PM (#20473921)
The United States Constitution wasn't even the first constitutive document of the United States! It was very much informed by the experiences, not only of other countries, but also very much of the Articles of Confederation.