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Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by kees99 on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @11:24AM (#20460447)
Quote:

  the metal casing helps
  spread that heat around
It does, to a degree. But that is absolutely not what we are seeing in that IR picture. Shiny bare metal is a mirror at the wavelengths that thermal camera uses. So what you see on thermal image where wifi-module shield and CPU are is reflection of ambient (room) where this picture was taken. Try waving your hand around, you'll see it reflecting there too.

To measure real metal surface temperature by IR, you have to paint that metal (ideally, with black matte paint), or apply similarly-textured sticker.

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by JorgeGT on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @01:03PM (#20461605)
Yep, a lot of people nowadays is using IR cameras without any calibration or understanding of the physics behind the measurement. The truth is, the camera requires an emissivity coefficient to associate the received radiation with the emitter body temperature. There are tables for different types of materials, but the best is to calibrate against a surface thermocouple or similar.

A corollary of this is, when you see an IR picture of a product with very different surfaces like rubber, shiny metal, matte paint, plastic, glass, etc. you know that almost for sure the measurement is unreliable because at most they calibrated the camera for the emissivity coefficient of one of the surfaces. And they vary quite a lot...

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by darkmighty on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @03:15PM (#20463012)
Indeed, but note it usually works well enough, because most surfaces have high IR emissivity (in particular with organics like plastics, papers, woods, fabrics, etc.; soils and liquids as well).

The one exception you have to be careful is with unpainted metal (high reflectivity). If polished it can be so low that even calibration doesn't help -- because you'd need extremely precise calibration that isn't practical and because reflections and noise/other heat sources will pollute you readings. In that case a simple sticker (or thermocouple reading) would be more adequate.

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by close04 on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @04:03PM (#20463387)
This is a more accurate representation of RPi 4 temps[0].

[0] https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/raspberry-pi-specs-benchma...

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by DINKDINK on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @01:33PM (#20461968)
>people nowadays is using IR cameras without any calibration or understanding of the physics behind the measurement

The four factors are Emissivity (ε), Absorptivity (α), reflectivity (ρ) and transmissivity (t). Emissivity is only one facet. Ideal is high Emissivity and low reflectivity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_properties

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by JorgeGT on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @01:55PM (#20462224)
Certainly, in most cameras the factors are in fact accounted for by setting the emissivity factor, a reflected apparent temperature, the distance to the object and the relative humidity. Thermography is certainly not an straightforward "point and click" process...
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by CliffStoll on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @03:56PM (#20463333)
As a once-infrared-astronomer, I can certainly confirm your statement: Thermography is certainly not a straightforward "point-and-click" process.

Six years of grad school...

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by matt-attack on Thursday July 18, 2019 @09:27PM (#20475512)
Damn, are you the Cliff Stoll? I must say I thoroughly enjoyed your book back in the day. Upon reflection, it may have even affected my career (for the best).

Cheers!

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by sizzle on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @07:19PM (#20465022)
Sounds like a cool profession, what are you up to nowadays?
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by DCoder on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @11:42PM (#20466490)
I thought that username seemed familiar… [0]

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Stoll

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by sizzle on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:02PM (#20519657)
Oh wow what a pleasant surprise! Such an interesting person.
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by Rerarom on Thursday July 18, 2019 @12:43AM (#20466776)
Yup, if you look into his comment history he confirmed he's the same person
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by ZeikJT on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:22PM (#20474945)
Check out the Numberphile videos he's been in on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLt5AfwLFPxWJeBhzCJ_JX...
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by darkmighty on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @03:23PM (#20463075)
Emissivity is mostly what matters in this case.

Whether the material is reflective or transmissive just means you'll be "seeing" IR sources reflected off the target or from behind the target, respectively. You do have to keep that in mind if there's an object not in ambient temperature in those locations (e.g. a clear sky is of very low temperature, a person is around 35C).

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by azernik on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @05:03PM (#20463986)
Absorptivity is generally equal to emissivity (except for things that have wildly different emissivity in their blackbody IR spectrum vs the ambient IR spectrum).
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by gadgetoid on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @11:32AM (#20460553)
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by book-mind on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @11:43AM (#20460679)
That image is still highly misleading, you can see from the overlayed optical image that the CPU is not coated.

Ideally you'd want to coat any metal surface with black epoxy, and set the IR camera Emissivity Coefficient to 0.9 (the coefficient for black epoxy).

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by delinka on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @12:39PM (#20461351)
Why would the overlay need to be with the board that had a coating? Buy two boards, cover the parts on one board that are silver, shoot IR. Use second board for visible wavelength photo, combine for a beautiful overlay result.
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by godelski on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @02:32PM (#20462608)
Why would you assume that they are different boards?
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by stan_rogers on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @02:41PM (#20462710)
It's not an assumption, it's a suggestion for making an thermal/visible light overlay photo where the IR photo shows only emitted light.
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by outworlder on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @02:56PM (#20462843)
Wouldn't that change the heat dissipation characteristics and skew the results? Is a metal surface coated with epoxy exactly the same (from transmission, convection and radiation point of views) as a naked metal surface?
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by nixgeek on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @11:41AM (#20460663)
How was that accomplished? Extremely nice image!
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by JorgeGT on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @01:08PM (#20461667)
Many IR cameras have actually two cameras, a normal optical one with high resolution (~10^3 x 10^3), and the IR one (microbolometer) which is low resolution (~10^2 x 10^2). They ensemble the two pictures later and produce these results.
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by geerlingguy on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @08:23PM (#20465444)
I have the cheaper Seek imager, which just has a low res IR camera. Can’t afford the fancy tools where not needed! I mostly use it to check the house for air leaks and thermal issues.
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by geerlingguy on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @11:37AM (#20460600)
True, I worded it a bit wrong. But the metal case is a huge improvement over the plastic die package on the Pi 3 B and earlier—a heat sink helps a little but you don't yet _need_ one if you use a fan, since the metal is much better at dispersing the heat.
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by kees99 on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @12:36PM (#20461319)
Indeed - there is enough aluminum/copper in the SoC's metal lid and PCB's inner (ground/power) layers, that the whole thing is effectively a 2-3 square-inch heat-sink. Eben himself has been talking about this technique around the time RPi3+ was released.

And your point here is completely understandable too - there is a kinda-heatsink there already. Just add a fan, and we're good.

My point is - seeing a large black hole where SoC goes (color corresponding to +20-ish degrees C by the chart) is utterly confusing, since SoC is the hottest point actually.

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by naikrovek on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @12:53PM (#20461499)
How does it radiate enough heat with so little surface area (in comparison to an extruded aluminum heat sink with fins?)
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by kees99 on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @01:00PM (#20461559)
There is more area than meets the eye - a large chunk of PCB itself is a "heatsink" thanks to sheer amount of metal in there.
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by pankajdoharey on Thursday July 18, 2019 @01:09AM (#20466909)
Check the Ice Tower cooler for raspberry pi https://youtu.be/RyUXC3886Ic
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by tagrun on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @08:00PM (#20465327)
Physicist here, and I disagree. Where else could that radiation with ~10 micron wavelength at that intensity with that localized spatial profile from that particular direction be coming from?

Yes environment typically will have some residual "noise" at those wavelengths, which you can check its intensity and spatial profile by taking a "dark frame" if you're in a strange environment and are really suspicious, but it's hardly going to alter what you're seeing in any qualitative way. Assuming someone isn't sending a focused beam of exactly that size at exactly that spot at an exactly correct angle at that particular wavelength.

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by klickverbot on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @09:27PM (#20465807)
Physicist here too. What exactly do you disagree with? The parent comment is sound – thermal imaging cameras typically under-read on shiny metal surfaces. Their emissivity/absorptivity at relevant wavelengths is low, and reflectivity is high. Thus, their own Planck spectrum is (approximately) scaled down by their emissivity, and consequently the radiation in the measured MIR band is mostly what is reflected, which tends to come from the room-temperature environment.

A polished piece of metal makes a shitty black body. This is also why shiny metal (foil) is used to curb unwanted radiated heat transfer everywhere from thermos flasks and cryostats to space probes. (The lower emissivity further improves the efficiency of multi-layer insulation.)

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by tagrun on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @11:08PM (#20466342)
Let me try again. Assistant Professor of Physics here (not a grad student).

Yes, reflectance of room temperature aluminum at those wavelengths is pretty good (not true for all metals BTW). Yes, this usually makes it hard to distinguish thermal radiation and reflected radiation with metals. What are you trying to say though? That whatever comes off from a metal must always be a reflection coming from somewhere else?

> Thus, their own Planck spectrum is (approximately) scaled down by their emissivity, and consequently the radiation in the measured MIR band is mostly what is reflected, which tends to come from the room-temperature environment.

I don't know what you mean by "Planck spectrum is (approximately) scaled down" (as "Planck spectrum" only refers to thermal radiation and is generated in a separate process from reflected photons [one is governed by the conduction band whereas the other is governed by everything up to Fermi level] and you can't hope to suppress thermal radiation by simply shining random environmental light on a metal --there is no such thing as "scaling down" of thermal radiation unless you engineer such property), but there is just no way that 10 micron photons at that intensity could be coming from a room-temperature environment.

So your blanket statements about metals aside, the hot area in that picture is due to a very specific signal which can't be due to something that's reflected from the environment. No significant fraction of those 10 micron photons coming off from that localized the area around the CPU could have originated from the environment --assuming that those pictures aren't taken in a hot oven and someone focused the thermal radiation on to the heatsink to get that amount of intensity.

And as I mentioned, that's pretty trivial to test. If those 10 micron photons were coming from the environment as you or the parent comment suggest, the thermal camera would report ~60C even when you look at Pi 4 when it is cooled (again, this is something can use as "dark frame" and subtract off from all readings if you're trying to be more accurate). This is clearly not the case, though, as you can see in the video on the blog post.

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by michaelt on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:39AM (#20468457)

  What are you trying to say though?
In the first image in the linked article, the thermal camera picture has a scale at the bottom. On the scale shown white and red are hottest (66°C) and blue and black are coldest (23°C). The CPU is black (23°C), and the PCB directly adjacent to it is white (66°C).

kees99 and klickverbot are saying it's unlikely the CPU is actually 23°C, especially given the author's statement the CPU was around 60°C, and that it's well known taking thermal camera images of things with different emissivities will produce inaccurate results.

kees99 is also saying, given that the thermal image doesn't accurately measure the temperature of the CPU, the article's statement that the metal casing helps isn't really warranted.

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by tagrun on Thursday July 18, 2019 @12:40PM (#20471548)
CPU is at 23C? Are we looking at the same image?

The CPU is the heat generator there, and is in contact with metallic regions around 60C (the red ring, if you compare to the real picture and follow the metallic bevels), where heat conductivity abruptly drops, which is what I've been talking about from the beginning. Since the heat is generated by the CPU and flows to the metal casing and to the PCB, the CPU can't be lower than 60C.

I agree that the reading for the inner region of the metal casing (which is not the CPU) must be off, and it's probably because the emission intensity there isn't strong enough and the camera software is mixing the emission and reflection when inferring the temperature (which gives physically incorrect results because the spectrum won't obey Planck's law, but the error depends on how different the temperatures are, and gets much stronger as they drift apart) rather than doing something like a "dark frame" subtraction (which is doable in principle).

Accuracy concerns aside, though, everything we see there (when you consider the physical context) supports the fact that the metal casing helps spreading the heat (which is obvious, it's a material which high heat conductivity, and there wouldn't be any need to put it there otherwise).

Even the 60C reading must be off by some for the same reason (given the regions appearing at around 70C), of course, but I assume OP doesn't care about that level of accuracy.

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by michaelt on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:58PM (#20474307)
I agree it's true metal conducts heat better than plastic, and that a metal package is a conventional choice for that reason.

I disagree that the thermal image provides evidence of those truths

Does the image prove the CPU has a low temperature? No, the image reports the temperature inaccurately. Does the image prove the package has no hotspots? No, it wouldn't show hotspots if they were there. Does the fact the PCB gets hot tell us much? Not really, you'd expect heat to conduct from the package and balls to the PCB no matter what the package was made from.

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by tagrun on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:20PM (#20474933)
If that cap didn't spreading the heat as well, what you'd be seeing on the thermal camera would be something that glows around 60C-70C (because clearly, the camera's software can more or less resolve the room temperature reflection from 60C thermal radiation), and the color would be more or less uniform in the region above the CPU. There wouldn't be such a strong observed temperature gradient.

Which is the evidence you're looking for.

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by arpa on Thursday July 18, 2019 @01:05AM (#20466893)
Genuinely curious person here. What is the key reason to use photon size instead of wavelenght? To stress the quantifiableness of the radiation being capured by the thermal camera? To be honest it is the first time i've seen photon size semicasually mentioned in a conversation. Then again i only had physics in high school.
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by acqq on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:39AM (#20468171)
> What is the key reason to use photon size

Photon size wasn't used. Micron is an unofficial name for 1e-6 m, the lengths of 0.7e-6 m to 1e-3 m correspond to the wavelength of infrared radiation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared

So "those 10 micron photons" there mean "the photons of the radiation with the wavelength of 1e-6 m."

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by arpa on Thursday July 18, 2019 @12:07PM (#20471222)
Ah! Makes so much more sense, thanks!
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by tagrun on Friday July 19, 2019 @12:47PM (#20480257)
They're the same thing: de Broglie wavelength would be the closest thing if you want to assign an effective "size" to a particle.
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by arpa on Saturday July 27, 2019 @09:55AM (#20542037)
That actually makes a lot of sense after a bit of Wikipediaing. Thank you for broadening my knowledge.
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by jeffalyanak on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @11:32PM (#20466451)
Understanding the reflectivity and emissivity of the material you are measuring is something that almost nobody accounts for outside of critical, professional applications.

Not that it makes the measurements in question any less inaccurate, but it's very common to see these problems in temperature measurements.

Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by hinkley on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @12:40PM (#20461361)
To what degree does scanning it in a cold room help?
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by burnte on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @06:28PM (#20464682)
He's measuring the temp of the board next to the CPU, not the shiny IHS on the CPU.
Re:The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan by logicallee on Thursday July 18, 2019 @10:10AM (#20469932)
how about touching a thermometer to it? (granted that is one spot, but I'd think it's most precise of all.)