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Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by criddell on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:03PM (#20423410)
> If you banned insurance discounts and insurance had to pay the same dollar to dollar cash price (without kickbacks/incentives)

It never occurred to me before that this is an option. That sounds like a good idea.

I also wonder why health insurance should be allowed as an employee benefit. How does it make any sense to tie my access to healthcare with my employment status?

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by snarf21 on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:08PM (#20423467)
It doesn't and it didn't used to be that way. During labor shortages in WWII, laws were passed to limit salaries and keep companies working. The workaround was to start offering "benefits" and they just never went away.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by cneurotic on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:42PM (#20424316)
Wish more people talked about / knew this!

How a big part of the reason the US healthcare system sucks is just a weird fluke of history!

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by credit_guy on Friday July 12, 2019 @06:59PM (#20425285)
Indeed, it’s too bad this is not more widely known.

The NYT has a nice overview [1], the relevant passages below. Wikipedia’s coverage [2] is excellent as well.

“In 1942, with so many eligible workers diverted to military service, the nation was facing a severe labor shortage. Economists feared that businesses would keep raising salaries to compete for workers, and that inflation would spiral out of control as the country came out of the Depression. To prevent this, President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9250, establishing the Office of Economic Stabilization.

This froze wages. Businesses were not allowed to raise pay to attract workers.

Businesses were smart, though, and instead they began to use benefits to compete. Specifically, to offer more, and more generous, health care insurance.

Then, in 1943, the Internal Revenue Service decided that employer-based health insurance should be exempt from taxation. This made it cheaper to get health insurance through a job than by other means.”

[1]https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/upshot/the-real-reason-th...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance_in_the_Unit...

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by howard941 on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:51PM (#20424384)
Inertia's definitely important but 75 years is a long time, long enough to discount it as a valid excuse. But if we're allowed to dig into history a contra example is another ~70 year old system, the UK's NHS. That system managed to pull itself up by its bootstraps in spite of the loss of empire, material shortages, and left over war ruins, and a superficially more discouraging class system than our's that turns out to have more upward mobility than our system. Weird.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by inferiorhuman on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:28PM (#20423639)
I also wonder why health insurance should be allowed as an employee benefit.

It's an excellent way of reducing worker mobility.

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by bb88 on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:14PM (#20424071)
How many people chose to keep their insurance with their existing job rather than to forego it in order to start a company?

Economically speaking a 20-something will have fewer responsibilities than say a 40-something with a family and children.

So many startups have been funded by 20-somethings having the ability to couch surf and live off their parents health insurance -- likely because they're the only ones that can afford the risk.

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by blackflame7000 on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:51PM (#20423858)
It's also far cheaper, on the whole, to insure a group of people vs an individual because there is less variance in the rates of usage.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by fmihaila on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:58PM (#20423920)
The logical conclusion, then, is that the most cost-effective structure is the maximal one (a single risk pool including the entire population, a.k.a. universal coverage).
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by nicoburns on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:15PM (#20424083)
And the evidence from countries that have implemented this supports that conclusion!
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by blackflame7000 on Friday July 12, 2019 @06:50PM (#20425235)
Not necessarily, people who are unemployed tend to get sick more often with the most common cause being substance abuse. A company with workers that are drug tested is likely to spend less money on substance abuse programs than a group of random individuals.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by BubRoss on Saturday July 13, 2019 @02:25AM (#20426793)
I think you need to back up claims like that with a source. Are companies themselves spending money on substance abuse programs for their employees? Are substance abuse problems the biggest factor in health insurance burden?
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by jeffdavis on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:38PM (#20424283)
No insurance provider has only one customer. They always pool risk across all of their customers. A company signing up lots of their employees doesn't increase the size of the pool -- it just adds an intermediary.

The reason often cited for employer-based coverage is that it avoids some self-selection problems, but that's a different and complex topic.

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by baddox on Friday July 12, 2019 @05:14PM (#20424579)
Self-selection is certainly a fundamental economic problem of health insurance. Large employers can make their own deals with insurance companies, and small employers can participate in small group health insurance plans (which effectively combine all the small businesses in a region/state into one group).

>> A company signing up lots of their employees doesn't increase the size of the pool -- it just adds an intermediary.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. For large group insurance plans, rates are determined by the risk (calculated by the insurance provider, with certain legal restrictions) of your individual employees. If you have 100 employees and 10 of them get a chronic illness, your rates will go up. Similarly, an employer with older employees will have higher rates than an employer with younger employees. The pricing is per group (employer), not based on the entire pool of the insurance provider's customers.

For very large employers, I believe it's common to self-insure, i.e. make a deal with an insurance provider to provide care to your employees at the rates negotiated between the insurance provider and health care providers, but the employer just pays out the total cost of delivered care rather than premiums. Then you get into stop-loss insurance and other interesting complications.

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by BubRoss on Saturday July 13, 2019 @02:19AM (#20426770)
That's what insurance is, no matter how you get it.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by howard941 on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:53PM (#20424393)
There's a phrase for it even: Job lock. It's a real employer benefit.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by baddox on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:56PM (#20423901)
As far as I can tell, the main advantages of getting health insurance from an employer are 1) the tax deduction and 2) favorable group insurance plans.

For 1, it's just completely insane that all medical expenses aren't automatically tax-deductible. It's silly that it's advantageous to have my employer pay $200 a month for my insurance plan rather than just pay me an extra $200 and let me use that on whatever plan I want.

For 2, that may be a little trickier politically. Group insurance gets more efficient the larger the group, assuming there's a mechanism to prevent adverse selection. So obviously, we want to increase group size. That was one of the claimed justifications for the individual mandate.

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by cheald on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:14PM (#20424072)
It does seems like an artifact that after-tax premiums aren't always deductible. We already have a model for how to do that in the homeowner's mortgage interest deduction: insurers (banks) report the total of your premiums (mortgage interest) to the IRS, you get to deduct that value from your AGI.

If you're paying for insurance with after-tax dollars, you can deduct it as long as you're a) itemizing, and b) have total medical + premium expenses >7.5% of AGI, but given that people who pay for insurance with pre-tax dollars get that benefit regardless of those criteria, it seems like it'd only be sane to relax the rules so that people paying with post-tax dollars get the same break.

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by Ididntdothis on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:31PM (#20424228)
For 2 the simple solution is to make the whole country the risk pool.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by baddox on Friday July 12, 2019 @05:00PM (#20424442)
Not the simplest politically, of course, but yeah, that's one of the primary economic arguments for nationalized health care or at least nationalized health insurance.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by nicoburns on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:16PM (#20424089)
Isn't 2 a great argument for nationalised healthcare insurance?
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by baddox on Friday July 12, 2019 @05:02PM (#20424468)
At the bare minimum it could be an argument for a public option, which was initially part of the Obamacare proposal until Lieberman threatened to cooperate with the GOP to block it.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by amatecha on Friday July 12, 2019 @08:10PM (#20425654)
Yeah, I keep wondering recently: why does the expenses of a corporation reduce their taxes, but the expenses of a human to stay alive (food, medical) not reduce their income tax?
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by perl4ever on Friday July 12, 2019 @11:49PM (#20426389)
In the US, we have something called the "standard deduction" which is more practical than everyone tracking things like a corporation that has accountants.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by balabaster on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:51PM (#20423855)
The same way tying work visas to employers limits employee mobility and increases the "slave labour" effect. People end up stuck in jobs they hate just because they have health insurance and will have to go without it for a period if they change jobs. That's utter bullshit.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by blackflame7000 on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:52PM (#20423873)
Well, that's what COBRA coverage is for to bridge the gap between jobs. Also if you lose your job you can usually get insurance from the state at little or no cost while on unemployment.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by axaxs on Friday July 12, 2019 @05:06PM (#20424506)
I don't know all the details, but COBRA prices have always seemed exorbitant, likely to discourage people from doing this. In my early 20's, when I had about the worst health plan ever, COBRA was still hundreds of dollars a month. Out of pocket, I bought a plan for something like $45 a month instead. I have trouble believing what COBRA offers is the same price as what a company pays - and if it is, they are getting hosed big time.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by secabeen on Friday July 12, 2019 @06:20PM (#20425036)
COBRA prices are exactly what the company + the employee pay, plus 3% for administrative overhead. What it illuminates is just exactly how much health care costs combined, even when the number the employee is paying is large, but manageable.

Employers now document their insurance costs for each employee on their W-2 forms, in case you want to see how much yours is paying for you.

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by axaxs on Saturday July 13, 2019 @12:34AM (#20426519)
Thanks for the insight, I'd always wondered. Now I find it even slightly more depressing.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by FireBeyond on Friday July 12, 2019 @05:01PM (#20424458)
Ahh COBRA. "You've just left your job and have all the regular expenses still, but you won't mind an extra $1500 a month for health insurance, right?"
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by SlavikCA on Friday July 12, 2019 @05:34PM (#20424724)
Well, without COBRA you'll have to pay $2500 for the same coverage.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by blackflame7000 on Friday July 12, 2019 @06:46PM (#20425216)
It's definitely a terrible system, but if you have a pre-existing condition how fair is it to the next insurance company to take you. That's like taking your crashed car to Geico and saying fix it. There has to be some way that the insurance company can make money on the odds.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by FireBeyond on Friday July 12, 2019 @07:11PM (#20425345)
If you have insurance and a pre-existing condition, it's probably going to be a net-neutral to the insurer (for every one coming on to their system, there's one leaving to another).

The preponderance of a given condition is not a function of having insurance (though complications thereof can certainly be increased by NOT having insurance). And has already been factored in by actuaries into policy pricing.

The biggest issue is that we see health insurance AS insurance, not amortized healthcare costing.

> There has to be some way that the insurance company can make money on the odds.

That's the thing, they see an opportunity to increase profit.

A few comments on that, as someone who has worked in the industry of developing software for health insurance claims management and benefit processing:

1) insurers are incentivized to deny claims, often talking about how "unfair" it might be for "them" to have to pay for a treatment. The irony is that "they" are not paying for anything - the risk pool is. Those premiums were calculated based on actuarial assessment, plus insurer overhead calculated in. What they mean by "them" having to pay out is that we cut into their profits, as they don't refund money to risk pools if the entirety of the pool is not used - they keep it, in addition to the admin overhead.

2) insurers have been known to be outright unethical, if not illegal in denying claims. Some prurient examples: denying Heli EMS for car accident victims from the scene to a trauma center because of "lack of pre-approval" (sorry, as a paramedic I am not "hold[ing] for a nurse consult" as I call an insurer to decide whether they are going to deign to pay for this patient's transport, and retroactively canceling coverage for "failure to disclose a pre-existing condition" that was actually unknown at the time of disclosure, i.e. "You were seeing a physician for maladies X, Y and Z. You had not been diagnosed with anything at that point, but later were, and maladies X, Y and Z were symptomatic of that. Ergo, you had that condition at that time, though you did not have a formal diagnosis, and failed to disclose that you had it. Accordingly we are voiding your coverage for breach of contract".

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by sizzle on Friday July 12, 2019 @08:40PM (#20425782)
This is despicable behavior on insurers part to kick people down when they are in need.

It should be illegal to drop a person's coverage if a clear diagnosis was not made prior to an incident that required medical intervention and cemented a diagnosis on paper.

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by traek on Saturday July 13, 2019 @02:27AM (#20426796)
> Some prurient examples

Not sure these are "prurient". You may mean salient.

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by lotsofpulp on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:06PM (#20423448)
Whatever historical reason there may have been to start it, the only reason it exists now is to give big businesses more power than smaller businesses, and individuals.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by thfuran on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:43PM (#20423774)
That's reductive. If I have a choice between a job that offers health insurance and one that doesn't, all other things being equal, I'm definitely taking the former. That's also surely a large part of why it continues to exist.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by wincy on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:27PM (#20424187)
Right but the reason large insurers can offer good insurance is they are a much larger risk pool.

I work for a Fortune 500 and my daughter has probably cost the insurance $1m. No big deal rates didn’t even raise.

Before I worked for a contractor and we cost THEM a million bucks, and they had to get rid of the low deductible plan, and boost insurance rates by $50 per WEEK per employee. We single-handedly destroyed their risk pool from three months of NICU stay, making it so they could no longer offer affordable insurance. Rather than accept the new rates we got cheaper plans on the Marketplace. Unfortunately though those aren’t tax deductible but we still came out ahead.

It’d make far more sense to just have a marketplace for everyone and make the risk pool the entire US population, rather than let giant corps get good rates while small companies get devastated when an employee or their children get sick.

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by baddox on Friday July 12, 2019 @05:19PM (#20424617)
> Before I worked for a contractor and we cost THEM a million bucks

Was this a large group insurance plan (usually 50+ or 100+ employees depending on the state)? If it were a small group insurance plan I don't believe your utilization would increase the rates, since AFAIK all the small groups in one state/region and insurance provider are combined.

If the employer was large enough to have a large group insurance plan, but still fairly small, I suppose one person's utilization could noticeably increase rates at the next plan negotiation. I believe this is why some companies that are too big for small group insurance plans utilize "professional employer organizations" to participate in a larger risk pool.

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by wincy on Saturday July 13, 2019 @11:33AM (#20428528)
Yeah it was maybe a 50-100 person company. The new company is substantially larger.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by lotsofpulp on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:57PM (#20423913)
I’m talking about the legal reason for it to exist, since employers can purchase insurance with pre-tax money, and the bigger and more white collar/younger the employer, the less their insurance costs.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by astura on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:03PM (#20423974)
It really bothers me that some employee compensation is lower because of health insurance being a standard employee benefit. An employer saves thousands of dollars if an employee doesn't need to enroll in their insurance (they may get it through their spouse, the VA, or are enrolled in medicare). That savings is not required to be passed down to the employee and its almost never is in practice.
Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by dredmorbius on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:07PM (#20423451)
You can literally (if indirectly) blame the Nazis.

WWII wage-price controls:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114045...

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by gowld on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:12PM (#20423504)
WWII also motivated universal health care (NHS) in the UK.

How does this make sense, though?

> "The war economy is an entirely different ballgame," Thomasson says. The government rationed goods even as factories ramped up production and needed to attract workers. Factory owners needed a way to lure employees. She explains that the owners turned to fringe benefits, offering more and more generous health plans.

Why is a healthy plan better for employers than paying cash and letting employees buy their own health care / insurance?

The 1943 IRS ruling that health insurance is tax free, and the legislature failing to correct that, is more of a problem. This blatant failure isn't an "accident", it's bad lawmaking that biases toward business, against people.

Re:Hospitals Block ‘Surprise Billing’ Measure by dredmorbius on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:27PM (#20423627)
Why is a healthy plan better for employers than paying cash

Wage-price controls prohibited that.

and letting employees buy their own health care / insurance?

Risk-pooling, information asymmetries, "shoe-leather" frictions (having to shop around, individually, for everyone), bargaining power.

Healthcare markets poorly.