Despite calls for reform, college attendance for youngsters is still actively discouraged in favor of trade school and worse options (such as homeschooling). All in the name of being able to dedicate greater time evangelizing. All of us that have left know that the underlying rationale is to prevent young JWs from being exposed to rational, liberal thought that almost inevitably destroys their house of cards dogma.
Yes I'm smiling too. The moral upbringing was good. The emotional baggage is not.
In my time going to college I have not felt that "rational, liberal thought" is in contrast to any perceived "dogma" that I have been taught as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Also remember that the chart statistics only use income as a measure of comparison. This is fairly meaningless because lower income does not necessarily mean a worse living condition or less happiness.
I left at 18 when I discovered that evolution wasn't the nonsense I'd always been taught. There was a period where I searched desperately for any credible arguments against it, and found none. When I started talking to the people who had been telling me it was wrong, I realized that they had no idea what evolution actually was. In some cases, they didn't know the distinction between natural selection and the theories of the origin of the universe.
People accuse the JW's of being a cult with good reason: members are discouraged from associating with non-members. They're also told to avoid all contact with anyone who is 'disfellowshipped' (thrown out).
This means that the penalty for disagreement with the church is losing everyone you care about. 'Shunning' is a tactic very common to cults.
This also means the price for being intellectually honest with yourself is very high. That's how smart people manage to continue believing in something so demonstrably false. For me to give up my faith, strong evidence wasn't enough - it took overwhelming evidence, and even then it was a very emotionally trying time.
The reason their income is low is simple: the church has noticed that education is anti-correlated with membership and so they continually discourage it. Very much like a corrupt government tries to bury information injurious to itself.
I agree, only comparing income is rather misleading.
JW's don't smoke or do drugs and so have a far smaller problem with addictions which require professional help and counseling. So although on paper the JWs and the Black Protestant Churches look similar in terms of income one has to remember that the Black Churches have a significant problem with addiction to drugs and alcohol among their members which contributes to their low income scores.
Not smoking or doing drugs frees up more of the JWs disposable income, and the same goes for Mormons not drinking alcohol.
Also many JWs have a lower income because many of them only work part-time by choice so that they have more spare time for preaching, a by-product of this is that voluntarily being able to spend less time at work generally means less stress in the family and more time with the children.
Then again, rich man, heaven, all that jazz. We'll see who has the last laugh. Or we won't. Let's eat.
It is "Jehovah's Witnesses" not "Jehovah Witnesses" or "Jehovahs". The apostrophe followed by an "s" is meaningful because it shows that these Witnesses belong to Jehovah. This idea is taken from the passage at Isaiah 43:10 which says:
"YOU are my witnesses", is the utterance of Jehovah, "even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me".
One of the core beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses is that just as you and I have names, God has a name as well and it is important to use that name in worship and prayer.
Therefore we find it mildly offensive to be called "Jehovahs" as that is like saying we are gods, and "Jehovah Witnesses" makes the name of God sound like an adjective.
We prefer to be called by our name "Jehovah's Witnesses" or as a shortened form just "Witnesses".
I assume your smile was humor about the fact that members of the Jehovah's Witnesses have on average a lower income than members of many other religions. I could comment on possible explanations for why, but this comment is already getting long.
I think you deserve some explanation from my side. I don't know what it is about in USA, but here, in Russia, "Jehovah's Witnesses" is just a pyramidal sect. They spam, they visit other people's homes, they annoy you on the streets, and once someone gets to become a Jehovah's Witness, you won't see him again.
That's also a reason why I wasn't really surprised by low levels of their incomes. Mostly because after you drop your job, you don't usually earn much.
Jehovah's Witnesses definitely do visit people's homes here in the U.S, and some people are certainly annoyed by that, but one possibly little known fact is that if you tell a Witness that you don't ever want them to come back we'll add you to a "Do Not Call List". If you are really irritated by our visits you can easily stop them.
I certainly don't feel that we are a "pyramidal sect". We are a sect in the definition that our beliefs differ from those of the dominant world religions, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Pyramidal would imply that some members are better than others or that we have some complex structure that oppresses the common member in favor of an elite class of members. On the contrary I can assure you that every member is treated equally. Naturally some members who are better at coordinating things take the lead in organizing functions and operations but these individuals are not assumed to be better than any other member, and there are no extra perks, pay, or glory going to these volunteers.
I'm not sure why you would not be seeing someone after they became a Jehovah's Witness. I know that the Russian government has put major pressure on JW's in violation of their own laws on freedom of religion and as a result local JW's may find it beneficial to maintain a low profile. Another possible explanation is that after becoming JW's many choose to stop associating with former friends who they find to be living lifestyles which are immoral and who they feel might be a bad influence.
As for "dropping your job" the only case where I can think of a Jehovah's Witness leaving their employment because they were a Witness would be a situation in which the person was working in the army, or in some industry directly connected to immoral activity.
At any rate I'm sorry that you see the ministry work being done in Russia as "spam", and "annoying". We just want to give you free reading material that you can consider and compare with your own beliefs. If you don't like it, tell us and we'll leave you alone. If you do like it, tell us and we'll be happy to explain more to you.
In my mind there are tremendous advantages to being well informed and learning about alternative cultures, so I am willing to consider ideas and reading material from numerous sources. In the end, I am the one who makes the decision about how to live my life. Jehovah's Witnesses feel that we have a very beneficial way of life that others can benefit from, so we advocate it. Why not have a serious talk with a Jehovah's Witness?
In the worst case scenario we are just crazy people and you wasted your time talking to us. However, you still gained valuable information and a broader picture of the different cultures of the world. In the best case scenario you find our way of life interesting and decide to pursue it.
First of all, we do our evangelical work everywhere, to both rich and poor individuals, but in general people who are poor or immigrants or minorities are more interested in religion when compared to someone who has a high paying job and feels they are already very satisfied with their life.
Second of all, Jehovah's Witnesses advocate a simple life. The idea is that it doesn't take a lot of money to live a nice life, its how you use that money. For example, a baptized Witness is not be a smoker, gambler, alcoholic, etc. By quitting the smoking or drug habit many individuals have lowered their expenses, allowing them to live better lives without raising their income.
To some extent the pursuit of high education is not encouraged. Although many Witnesses will get an Associates Degree, it is generally not encouraged that they go on to higher education. This does also limit income.
But to go along with your comment, yes I feel happy and fulfilled. I spend roughly half my time at the computer doing freelance web development work or working on my startup Bookflavor. The rest of the time I spend with friends or doing door to door preaching. It is actually very interesting.
Imagine going door to door one weekend in an affluent neighborhood where a security guard takes down your license plate before allowing you to enter, then the next week going door to door in the ghetto where you have to watch where you step to avoid trash and used condoms. Jehovah's Witnesses get to talk to people of all sorts. As someone who is deeply interested in psychology and sociology I enjoy this communication with people from different cultural and economic backgrounds. Our door to door work is fascinating not only from that perspective, but also from the perspective of practicing real world sales skills. I would dare say any decent Jehovah's Witnesses would make a great salesman/woman.
I would say that my life is very interesting, and I wouldn't be any happier if I worked more hours so that I could make more money. Indeed if I worked more hours to make more money I wouldn't have time to work on my startup.
I want to ask you a question, why do you feel the need to go into someone's house with the goal of converting them to your religion? I've had discussions about religion with a few Jehovah's Witnesses that have come around my home, and they've been resentful and insulting when having to deal with a two sided conversation about their religion and my lack thereof. I'm of course not saying you're the same, but from my experience, most Jehovah's Witnesses seem either fanatics or 'salespeople' (people with the need to make me buy into something they want me to).
I have a problem with being disrupted in my home after a long day by someone trying to convert me into a religion I don't follow, but even then I try to be respectful and understand that people have different believes to mine. I'd expect the same treatment from a person ringing my doorbell to preach, but I have found that it very rarely is the case.
JWs believe that all other religions are tools of the devil designed to distract people from the one true religion - theirs. This is true of "false Christianity", other Christian religions, as well as "pagan" religions. Being a good JW is the only sure way of staying on the right side of the JW version of the blessed and the damned; belong to any other religion and your chances aren't so good (though God may give some people a second chance after he destroys our world as it exists today).
On a more practical level, there is immense peer pressure within the church to go door-to-door. Hours spent evangelizing are reported to the local elders by each member of the church and detailed records of evangelism activity are kept. Families and individuals that don't spend sufficient time evangelizing are pressured by the church elders to do more.
To make this easier to understand you could easily substitute other goals. For example, what if you knew of a treatment for diabetes or AIDS that could benefit others? Wouldn't you feel the need to tell others with diabetes and AIDS rather than leaving them to stumble across it on their own?
Likewise, we feel that the morals and lifestyle we advocate are beneficial and can help many improve their lives. Therefore we want to tell other people about it. At that point other people can either say "I don't like it and don't want to hear about it," or "I like it and want to find out more."
I'm sorry you have had some bad experiences with Witnesses visiting your door in the past. Naturally there are unbalanced and insulting Jehovah's Witnesses just as there are unbalanced and insulting atheists. People differ. However, I can assure you that every Jehovah's Witness is encouraged to be very respectful and polite about sharing his/her beliefs and listening to the beliefs of others. Some people's personality traits aren't up to par, but we can't stop them from going out and talking to others. Remember that every Jehovah's Witness is a volunteer so naturally some of these volunteers are going to be good, and some of them aren't going to be so good.
If you experience someone who seems rude or confrontational you can tell them to leave your door, or you could get their name and complain to the local congregation (using the phone number in the local phone book). Somebody will probably talk to them and ask them to please be more polite.
At any rate if you would like to try a decent, two sided conversation about religion or the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses feel free to contact me:
My issue is that more times than not, my answer tends to be followed by a list of why I'm wrong and why I should convert. If I expressed that I'm not interested in the discussion at that time, I'm bombarded with reproach. If it happens that I'm in for some friendly debate, it becomes an issue of being told that I'm wrong because god said so... followed by more intense reproach, of course in a not so friendly way.
I'm generally not a fan of discussing religion because there are no clear cut winners and it generally becomes an issue of the more eloquent party having the upper hand. More times than not someone ends up with angry-ish feelings towards the opposing party. In any case, you're probably a diamond in a sea of carbon... You guys should make door to door preaching something a member can do after being vetted as capable of not offending the population you're trying to convert.
Perhaps if you were willing to talk about your beliefs I might go on to other questions such as "Do you believe that it is possible for us to determine if a God exists?" or "Do you think it is possible to find evidence that God exists?" and "Would you be willing to listen to some reasons why I feel that there is a God?"
If so we could discuss each individual reason. Really it is comparable to having a discussion here on Hacker News. There are disagreements here on HN but as long as everyone sticks to the guidelines everyone involved can have a productive conversation. I feel that likewise it is possible to have a productive conversation about religion.
Jehovah's Witnesses do have a vetting approach of sorts when it comes to determining capability but as I'm sure you will agree vetting is an extremely hard problem to tackle both accurately and fairly.
When I was around, they did't have the wealth or intellectual sophistication to advertise themselves effectively. We had been using the same sales book for years and I wouldn't be surprised if "the reasoning book" is still around. An organization that enforces orthodoxy as thoroughly as Jehovah's Witnesses isn't exactly a breeding ground for creative and entrepreneurial spirits.
I wouldn't expect them to pivot if hard sales techniques proved to be annoying or ineffective. They used to publish their conversion statistics in the January 1st or 15th edition of The Watchtower so you could follow their growth (an anemic 1% or so per year back in the late 90s). That was a shockingly transparent move for such a close-minded organization; it probably helps increase members trust in the central organization. But it is also bad for morale to watch numbers languish.
Universal evangelism in JW congregations will never disappear. The shared experience helps separate them from the rest of the world and bind them together, much like hazing at a fraternity or combat experiences in the military.
As an unbeliever growing up in a JW household, going door to door every weekend was certainly one of the most horrific parts of my early life. I am so, so glad that is over.
My experience is mostly with people who had the misfortune to be born into the church who live repressed and desperate lives. On the other hand, most converts come from the rank of the poor and destitute and probably see their lives improve upon joining the church due to the strict lifestyle and strong community.
The poverty of Jehovah's Witnesses is mostly due to the forced ignorance of their young, since there are so few converts (at least, US growth numbers were poor in the late 90s/early 00s, probably below member fertility).
P.S. Ex-JW party on Hacker News! The shunning was hard at first, but it feels so good to be out.