News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Mapping Income Distribution by Religious Belief by mcantor on Saturday December 25, 2010 @12:12PM (#2039103)
If you (Witnesses) are happy and fulfilled with that income, then OP's schadenfreude is misguided, anyway.
Re:Mapping Income Distribution by Religious Belief by NathanKP on Saturday December 25, 2010 @02:15PM (#2039270)
I think there are several reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses generally have lower incomes.

First of all, we do our evangelical work everywhere, to both rich and poor individuals, but in general people who are poor or immigrants or minorities are more interested in religion when compared to someone who has a high paying job and feels they are already very satisfied with their life.

Second of all, Jehovah's Witnesses advocate a simple life. The idea is that it doesn't take a lot of money to live a nice life, its how you use that money. For example, a baptized Witness is not be a smoker, gambler, alcoholic, etc. By quitting the smoking or drug habit many individuals have lowered their expenses, allowing them to live better lives without raising their income.

To some extent the pursuit of high education is not encouraged. Although many Witnesses will get an Associates Degree, it is generally not encouraged that they go on to higher education. This does also limit income.

But to go along with your comment, yes I feel happy and fulfilled. I spend roughly half my time at the computer doing freelance web development work or working on my startup Bookflavor. The rest of the time I spend with friends or doing door to door preaching. It is actually very interesting.

Imagine going door to door one weekend in an affluent neighborhood where a security guard takes down your license plate before allowing you to enter, then the next week going door to door in the ghetto where you have to watch where you step to avoid trash and used condoms. Jehovah's Witnesses get to talk to people of all sorts. As someone who is deeply interested in psychology and sociology I enjoy this communication with people from different cultural and economic backgrounds. Our door to door work is fascinating not only from that perspective, but also from the perspective of practicing real world sales skills. I would dare say any decent Jehovah's Witnesses would make a great salesman/woman.

I would say that my life is very interesting, and I wouldn't be any happier if I worked more hours so that I could make more money. Indeed if I worked more hours to make more money I wouldn't have time to work on my startup.

Re:Mapping Income Distribution by Religious Belief by sp4rki on Saturday December 25, 2010 @04:28PM (#2039434)
I was finding your post enlightening and even started to change my opinion on Jehovah's Witnesses (myself being an atheist) up until the point where I read this "doing door to door preaching". I have nothing against your religion (or any religion for that matter), but door to door preaching seems selfish to me.

I want to ask you a question, why do you feel the need to go into someone's house with the goal of converting them to your religion? I've had discussions about religion with a few Jehovah's Witnesses that have come around my home, and they've been resentful and insulting when having to deal with a two sided conversation about their religion and my lack thereof. I'm of course not saying you're the same, but from my experience, most Jehovah's Witnesses seem either fanatics or 'salespeople' (people with the need to make me buy into something they want me to).

I have a problem with being disrupted in my home after a long day by someone trying to convert me into a religion I don't follow, but even then I try to be respectful and understand that people have different believes to mine. I'd expect the same treatment from a person ringing my doorbell to preach, but I have found that it very rarely is the case.

Re:Mapping Income Distribution by Religious Belief by jacoblyles on Saturday December 25, 2010 @09:17PM (#2039873)
>"I want to ask you a question, why do you feel the need to go into someone's house with the goal of converting them to your religion?"

JWs believe that all other religions are tools of the devil designed to distract people from the one true religion - theirs. This is true of "false Christianity", other Christian religions, as well as "pagan" religions. Being a good JW is the only sure way of staying on the right side of the JW version of the blessed and the damned; belong to any other religion and your chances aren't so good (though God may give some people a second chance after he destroys our world as it exists today).

On a more practical level, there is immense peer pressure within the church to go door-to-door. Hours spent evangelizing are reported to the local elders by each member of the church and detailed records of evangelism activity are kept. Families and individuals that don't spend sufficient time evangelizing are pressured by the church elders to do more.

Re:Mapping Income Distribution by Religious Belief by NathanKP on Saturday December 25, 2010 @04:52PM (#2039460)
Why do you feel the need to go into someone's house with the goal of converting them to your religion?

To make this easier to understand you could easily substitute other goals. For example, what if you knew of a treatment for diabetes or AIDS that could benefit others? Wouldn't you feel the need to tell others with diabetes and AIDS rather than leaving them to stumble across it on their own?

Likewise, we feel that the morals and lifestyle we advocate are beneficial and can help many improve their lives. Therefore we want to tell other people about it. At that point other people can either say "I don't like it and don't want to hear about it," or "I like it and want to find out more."

I'm sorry you have had some bad experiences with Witnesses visiting your door in the past. Naturally there are unbalanced and insulting Jehovah's Witnesses just as there are unbalanced and insulting atheists. People differ. However, I can assure you that every Jehovah's Witness is encouraged to be very respectful and polite about sharing his/her beliefs and listening to the beliefs of others. Some people's personality traits aren't up to par, but we can't stop them from going out and talking to others. Remember that every Jehovah's Witness is a volunteer so naturally some of these volunteers are going to be good, and some of them aren't going to be so good.

If you experience someone who seems rude or confrontational you can tell them to leave your door, or you could get their name and complain to the local congregation (using the phone number in the local phone book). Somebody will probably talk to them and ask them to please be more polite.

At any rate if you would like to try a decent, two sided conversation about religion or the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses feel free to contact me:

http://about.me/nathanpeck

Re:Mapping Income Distribution by Religious Belief by sp4rki on Saturday December 25, 2010 @05:32PM (#2039507)
Fair enough. Your responses are very much a breath of fresh air in comparison to the comebacks that I've encountered in my day to day. That being said, if I'm interested in the treatment for Aids of diabetes, be it for my own person or for a relative or friend, I would more than likely make me interest (or disinterest) known. If you come to my house and ask me "would you like to hear about X religion and how it might benefit you?" and I answer "thank you, but I'm not really interested, I'm an atheist (or insert X religion here) and don't feel the need to convert to X any time soon" I expect the person to acknowledge my choices and realize that I'm not more right or wrong than him/her is, and that my choice of religion or lack thereof is to be as respected as the choice of the person doing the preaching.

My issue is that more times than not, my answer tends to be followed by a list of why I'm wrong and why I should convert. If I expressed that I'm not interested in the discussion at that time, I'm bombarded with reproach. If it happens that I'm in for some friendly debate, it becomes an issue of being told that I'm wrong because god said so... followed by more intense reproach, of course in a not so friendly way.

I'm generally not a fan of discussing religion because there are no clear cut winners and it generally becomes an issue of the more eloquent party having the upper hand. More times than not someone ends up with angry-ish feelings towards the opposing party. In any case, you're probably a diamond in a sea of carbon... You guys should make door to door preaching something a member can do after being vetted as capable of not offending the population you're trying to convert.

Re:Mapping Income Distribution by Religious Belief by NathanKP on Saturday December 25, 2010 @06:07PM (#2039559)
I completely understand what you are saying and agree. For example, if I visited your door and you told me that you were not interested because you were an atheist I would not ever reproach you, but I might ask a question such as "Have you always been an atheist, or did you once believe there was a God?" This isn't intended to be confrontational but is just motivated by curiosity on my part.

Perhaps if you were willing to talk about your beliefs I might go on to other questions such as "Do you believe that it is possible for us to determine if a God exists?" or "Do you think it is possible to find evidence that God exists?" and "Would you be willing to listen to some reasons why I feel that there is a God?"

If so we could discuss each individual reason. Really it is comparable to having a discussion here on Hacker News. There are disagreements here on HN but as long as everyone sticks to the guidelines everyone involved can have a productive conversation. I feel that likewise it is possible to have a productive conversation about religion.

Jehovah's Witnesses do have a vetting approach of sorts when it comes to determining capability but as I'm sure you will agree vetting is an extremely hard problem to tackle both accurately and fairly.

Re:Mapping Income Distribution by Religious Belief by jacoblyles on Sunday December 26, 2010 @02:06AM (#2040226)
Just to expand, when I was in the church, we had what amounted to a sales guidebook called "Reasoning from the Scriptures" that would list common objections and suggestions for responding to them. Your interlocutors were probably just doing as they were trained. The Jehovah's Witness church is in many ways a sales organization.

When I was around, they did't have the wealth or intellectual sophistication to advertise themselves effectively. We had been using the same sales book for years and I wouldn't be surprised if "the reasoning book" is still around. An organization that enforces orthodoxy as thoroughly as Jehovah's Witnesses isn't exactly a breeding ground for creative and entrepreneurial spirits.

I wouldn't expect them to pivot if hard sales techniques proved to be annoying or ineffective. They used to publish their conversion statistics in the January 1st or 15th edition of The Watchtower so you could follow their growth (an anemic 1% or so per year back in the late 90s). That was a shockingly transparent move for such a close-minded organization; it probably helps increase members trust in the central organization. But it is also bad for morale to watch numbers languish.

Re:Mapping Income Distribution by Religious Belief by jacoblyles on Saturday December 25, 2010 @09:24PM (#2039879)
You have to understand that your reaction is typical of 99% of people JWs meet at the door. If they gave up when someone said "I'm not interested in changing my religion", then they would never talk to anyone.

Universal evangelism in JW congregations will never disappear. The shared experience helps separate them from the rest of the world and bind them together, much like hazing at a fraternity or combat experiences in the military.

As an unbeliever growing up in a JW household, going door to door every weekend was certainly one of the most horrific parts of my early life. I am so, so glad that is over.

Re:Mapping Income Distribution by Religious Belief by jacoblyles on Sunday December 26, 2010 @02:19AM (#2040247)
In my church, many children that might go to college if they were part of another religion did not do so because they did not want to cross the teachings of the church. It is not forbidden to go to college, but it is highly discouraged. At the end of the road for crossing the church is disfellowshipping which means being shunned by everyone you have ever known. So most are intimidated from starting down that road.

My experience is mostly with people who had the misfortune to be born into the church who live repressed and desperate lives. On the other hand, most converts come from the rank of the poor and destitute and probably see their lives improve upon joining the church due to the strict lifestyle and strong community.

The poverty of Jehovah's Witnesses is mostly due to the forced ignorance of their young, since there are so few converts (at least, US growth numbers were poor in the late 90s/early 00s, probably below member fertility).