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Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by elamje on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @11:50AM (#20345353)
I agree that is outrageous. The problem is that people think it is capitalism. When there is no price transparency, there is no capitalism, period.

Hopefully the US is on the way to government healthcare, but for now it would be great to just achieve price transparency so people can shop around.

Without price there is no competition. Without competition there is no capitalism.

Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by hangonhn on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @12:00PM (#20345475)
Kenneth Arrow did a great analysis on efficient markets and the US healthcare industry. Basically it doesn't work the way it works in most free markets because of information asymmetry (he got the Nobel for it). Even if you had price transparency, you aren't in a position to decide what treatment to buy because you're not the doctor and don't have the necessary knowledge to make that decision. The whole process is misaligned because the recipient is not knowledgable enough to make the decision, the decision maker (doctor) is not the payor, and the actual payor (insurance) is often neither of those. Efficient markets require certain preconditions to be met to work. It's true in many situations but there are some well known edge cases.
Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by conanbatt on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @12:38PM (#20345963)
I would welcome a link to the analysis you point if you wish, but this is very reductive.

There are a million markets with information asymmetry and work just fine, and there are plenty of examples of cash-pay systems that work reasonably well for healthcare.

I disagree with OP that the problem is price transparency, but the healthcare market in the us is intervened in ways that prevent the classic workings of a market.

Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by Ididntdothis on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @12:49PM (#20346091)
I think you are right but I still think two steps would make the system much saner:

- Price transparency

- One price for the same service. The practice of charging $500 to the insurance but $10000 to the uninsured needs to stop. Maybe it's fine to vary by a few percent but there is no other market where the same product costs 20x more depending on who pays. If the excuse is that this is to compensate for non payers then let's pay for this from a separate pot.

Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by SolaceQuantum on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @12:55PM (#20346159)
None of this addresses the point- even if you have price transparency and one price for the same service, you are not educated enough to select services you need. Doubly so if an emergency happens.
Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by Ididntdothis on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @01:23PM (#20346410)
There are plenty of situations where you know what you need and you could shop for prices if it was possible to get any reliable prices. At a minimum transparency would make it obvious to the public how crazy the pricing practices are.

I agree about emergency situations.

Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by SolaceQuantum on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @01:31PM (#20346493)
If I go for routine bloodwork do I know exactly what bloodwork to order for, or the codes to request? Do I know when to discern between MRI, Xray, or ultrasound diagnostic? I find this hard to believe.
Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by Ididntdothis on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @02:19PM (#20347006)
Often your doctor tells you what tests they want and then you go to some center where they perform the tests. It's pretty predictable in many cases.
Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by SolaceQuantum on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @02:57PM (#20347463)
"Often your doctor tells you what tests they want"

This is the exact point- you do not have the education to shop because you don't even know what you need to be shopping for.

Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by metalchianti on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @11:53AM (#20345393)
Our current system is completely fueled by legalized price gouging. It's insane how much the medical industry is allowed to exploit these regulations.
Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by Ididntdothis on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @11:55AM (#20345416)
"When there is no price transparency, there is no capitalism, period."

Capitalists are perfectly fine with lack of price transparency or other tricks as long as it makes them money. They don't like competition.

What you are talking about is functioning markets.

Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by jerf on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @12:00PM (#20345478)
There's a lot of equivocation in the term "capitalists". Using the term to mean "people who want to take the capitalist system and turn it into a non-capitalist system that permanently writes their own benefit into it" is, well, I'll go with "not the path to clear thinking about the problem". I'm not comfortable calling it wrong, I mean, such people exist and in quantity, but it's definitely asking for muddled thinking on the topic to call someone deliberately tearing a system apart a name that implies them to be an advocate of that system.
Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by astazangasta on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @12:06PM (#20345570)
Capitalists can mean ideological believers in capitalism, or it can mean those who own capital. The former may be interested in efficient markets; the latter generally only want to maximize returns.
Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by fzeroracer on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @12:50PM (#20346103)
Both will eventually merge into the same thing, so I struggle to see a real difference.

In a free market, the assumption is that everyone is a rational actor that will work in their own self-interest. People that want to maximize returns are behaving as you'd expect; someone not wanting to maximize profit in a free market would be considered an irrational actor.

Which, well, there lies the problem. For a lot of markets, maximizing profit comes at a very human cost. For healthcare the profit incentive is to have as many barriers to avoid paying individuals as possible because their profiteering is orthogonal to your well-being in most cases.

This is also why many markets can be considered short-sighted because it's easier to make returns now than it is to gamble on long term growth, which results in smash-and-grab style of corporate takeovers.

Ultimately even if we did have price transparency for healthcare all of the issues would still remain. It just can't work as a free market and going further in that direction is just pouring salt on a rotting wound.

Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by bluGill on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @01:44PM (#20346633)
No, they do not merge into the same thing. If you already have capital it is to your advantage to create a system where nobody new can compete with those who do - lest someone who doesn't have capital comes along and undercuts you.
Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by fzeroracer on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @01:55PM (#20346760)
Yes, and that was my point. Staunch supporters of capitalism often own capital. A great example is home ownership, which people use as an investment platform. Using your home as an investment platform means you have an interest in maintaining the value of your investment, which leads to things like NIMBYism or voting against measures that might help the city, but devalue your property.

The only way you could possibly maintain free market capitalism is by, ironically, putting in rules preventing people from using the free market in their own rational self interest. Which is why I believe healthcare can't be fixed by making it free-er, simply because the rational self-interest of insurance companies is against that of the insured.

Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by Ididntdothis on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @12:08PM (#20345593)
that's why I want a clear distinction between the two. A lot of the second type of capitalist disguise themselves as the first type.
Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by orwin on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @01:09PM (#20346287)
Theories about efficient market/exchange is _liberalism_. Capitalism is an ideology about who own the means of production: in this case, the person who own the capital. When the state OR a "commune" owns the mean of production, this is communism. But you can definitively have a "free market communism", except WTO will probably disagree on whether product issued by a state controlled industry really respect its rules.

You can also the two, like in the nordic countries (or germany) where employee actually have voting power about the strtegic orientation of the company (actually i think employees are considered "owning" 30% of the issued shares or something like that). From a (weird) point of view, this is 70% capitalism, 30% communism.

Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by Ididntdothis on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @12:03PM (#20345514)
Look at the health system. There are a lot of capitalists who make a lot of money on their capital and don't seem very interested in change because most changes will cost profits. But from a market point of view the system is inefficient and lacks transparency .
Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by qwsxyh on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @11:53AM (#20345398)
No true capitalism.
Re:U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row (2018) by orwin on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @01:10PM (#20346297)