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Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by conanbatt on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:03AM (#20335788)
Lower oil prices is great for everyone, you underestimate the great benefit of cheap energy if you think that way.
Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by NeedMoreTea on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:06AM (#20335823)
Using the floorboards and rafters of the house as heating fuel is great for the householder... Until it it isn't.

We built a system that depends on borrowing from the future, and it's abundantly clear it's running out of available credit.

Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by conanbatt on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:32AM (#20336091)
Resources are meant to be consumed. What right do the future generations have over the right to consume those resources over us?
Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by jorge-d on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:37AM (#20336129)
What if we make future generations not needing to actually consume these resources ?

Also if you consume all the available non-renewable energy that you have, at one point you will mathematically end up in a dire situation.

Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by conanbatt on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:52AM (#20336274)
There is a fantastic talk with Milton Friedman about this argument that I recommend looking up.

A typical Engineering mindset conceptualizes the problem as if it were physics, where you see current output and stock and calculates the end result, but thats not how humans interact with each other: we are execute ingenuity at every step changing the basic formula again and again. If the former were true, you would have seen oil prices increase steadily over time, as oil absolutely runs out (no new one is produced), but you can see thats not what happens, it's even today way cheaper that it was decades ago. If it were starting to run out, the prices would shoot up and alternatives would become so appealing that they would be developed and used.

Hopefully the concept is clear, the TLDR is don't use physics to explain economics.

Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by jorge-d on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:31PM (#20336724)
Because technology advanced and new reserves were found.

The main problem is not that we'll eventually run out of oil. It's just that by the time we finish all the reserves most people living on Earth will probably experience extreme weather conditions all year round.

Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by cr0sh on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @01:47PM (#20337552)
> The main problem is not that we'll eventually run out of oil.

The concept of "peak oil" (discounting whether or not it's a fallacy) wasn't ever that we'd run out of oil. When peak oil occurred, there would still be oil in the ground.

The problem was (supposed to be) that the amount of energy it would take to extract that oil from the ground would be greater than the amount of energy you would get from that oil extracted. In other words, it would take as much or more than a barrel of oil's energy to extract that barrel of oil.

At that point, it would make no economic sense to try to get that oil, at least from an energy consumption point of view (it may make sense for other reasons though - for instance, to use the oil to make chemicals or plastics or other materials).

We were supposed to hit that point - and we have hit that point multiple times on a per-oil producing country level. The United States hit it a long while back. But then this new technology of fracking came into being, and it changed the equation radically. Now it seems the USA is outputting more oil than it ever has, in effect reversing it's peak oil status (which I don't think was ever thought possible).

Shale oil and oil sands were known about for a long time, but the technology made it super energy intensive; fracking opened it up, and also made old wells produce again. I'm sure the concept is being applied world wide as needed, and that's caused the "world peak oil" timeline to recede as well.

What would probably happen if "peak oil" ever did occur on a world level, would be that other energy sources would be used to extract it; nuclear generated electricity would be the best choice, much like it's been proposed for water desalination. But even those thoughts were predicated on the idea that solar costs wouldn't drop like they've did in recent years, so maybe solar might be the better choice?

Also, the oil probably wouldn't be brought up for fuel usage in such a scenario, since you'd still be upside down in that regard. But it would make sense to extract it for its other uses as a raw material.

Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by malvosenior on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:42AM (#20336190)
> What if we make future generations not needing to actually consume these resources ?

In all likelihood we'll need to consume the resources available to us to advance to the next level of technology where the existing resources are no longer needed.

> Also if you consume all the available non-renewable energy that you have, at one point you will mathematically end up in a dire situation.

Mathematically speaking, the resources will be consumed eventually. We just need to try to make as much progress as possible before that happens.

Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by conanbatt on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:35PM (#20336758)
> Mathematically speaking, the resources will be consumed eventually. We just need to try to make as much progress as possible before that happens.

Economically speaking, oil is infinite. Thats why its price goes down over time!

Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by imtringued on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:40AM (#20336155)
Why haven't we consumed everything yet?
Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by conanbatt on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:54AM (#20336302)
Certainly not due to heavy-handed rules imposed by governments, which I think is the proposed solution for those that appall at oil consumption.
Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by CalRobert on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @01:15PM (#20337200)
You mean the rules that make it illegal to put your home walking distance from your job, or to build a granny unit, or to build a home without parking, or to build an apartment building, or to not have a lawn, or to repurpose parking to housing, or to opt out of subsidizing meat production?
Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by francisofascii on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:48AM (#20336239)
When you take much, much more than you need, it becomes immoral.
Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by conanbatt on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:02PM (#20336427)
That's your opinion. I rather not have a moral system where someone decides how much you do of anything is immoral.
Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by antisthenes on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:42PM (#20336843)
I assume you're fine then with people inflicting as much violence on others as they want?
Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by dang on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @01:53PM (#20346739)
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by conanbatt on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:58PM (#20337019)
I strictly mentioned I wouldn't depend on someone deciding how much (x/violence) is moral or immoral.

Do you want to depend on someone to say how many beatings is moral to be inflicted upon yourself?

Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by antisthenes on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @02:10PM (#20337782)
> Do you want to depend on someone to say how many beatings is moral to be inflicted upon yourself?

Regardless of what I want, we currently live in a society where the govt holds the monopoly on violence. You're free to have your opinion that an adolescent libertarian utopia is possible though.

Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by dang on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @01:54PM (#20346750)
Crossing into name-calling and personal attack is not cool and will get you banned here. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use this site in its intended spirit?
Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by conanbatt on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @03:28PM (#20338580)
You are also free to clap at internment camps and smile at your own moral and intelectual superiority.
Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by dang on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @02:12AM (#20342030)
Would you please stop doing flamewars on HN? We've asked you repeatedly and we ban accounts that keep doing this.

Generic ideological flamewars are among the worst, because they're so repetitive.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by conanbatt on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @03:57AM (#20342469)
Okay. This is the first 'warning' I've read. I would read the thread that prompted this flagging, where I responded to a literal insult.
Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by dang on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @01:54PM (#20346756)
Ok, I've responded to a couple of the comments upthread. Not seeing a moderation reply doesn't mean we implicitly endorse a comment. The likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it.

Re previous 'warnings': https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19894978, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19696256, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19348644 are the ones I was referring to.

Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by z2 on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:09AM (#20335865)
The market capitalization of the large oil companies have also been very closely correlated with oil prices, so cheap oil could in fact hurt their margins rather than help shareholders.
Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by conanbatt on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:31AM (#20336083)
As logical as thinking that capping the velocity of cars only harms car companies. It's just not economic thinking.
Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by googoogaga on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:07AM (#20335832)
Not only this, he doesn't seem to understand fracking is not a new technology. Horizontal drilling is along with several others. It is these which make fracking ops viable.

Most people want to improve the environment. They way to do that is not legislating in controls on production because then we just import from ME and pay to secure shipping routes in that region. Instead, legislate in incentives to reduce demand (electric car subsidies etc.).

Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by jorge-d on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:18AM (#20335953)
The thing is that oil industry is actively lobbying the legislators to block any legislation that would reduce the demand.
Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by conanbatt on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:33AM (#20336103)
Tesla also lobbies to get subsidies for his own industry. No clean participants in the energy market.

It's on the state to fulfill its obligations with the citizenry

Re:U.S. Oil Output Tops 12M Barrels a Day for First Time by hanniabu on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:19AM (#20335964)
Parent never said it's a new technology