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Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by e1ghtSpace on Sunday June 30, 2019 @10:49PM (#20322096)
I don't think the lightning plug being on the bottom was really that big of a deal since a full charge lasts 2 months.
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by untog on Sunday June 30, 2019 @10:52PM (#20322112)
It still means the thing is unusable when charging, no matter how long a charge lasts.

In the grand scheme of things, no, it isn't that big of a deal. But it showcased a stereotype people associate with Apple: aesthetics over function. The plug could have gone in the top of the mouse, so you could use it just like you would a wired mouse while it charged. But no, the plug must be invisible, damn the inconvenience.

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by lyxsus1 on Monday July 01, 2019 @05:23AM (#20323703)
> It still means the thing is unusable when charging, no matter how long a charge lasts.

That was the whole purpose of putting it in a bottom. The thing works several months on a single charge and it takes just a couple of hours to recharge. And it starts giving notification at least a day before battery's depleted.

It's not aesthetics over function mantra, but realisation that they can't be decoupled or developed by separate divisions.

That's what concerns me about Ive leaving. He and Jobs evidently had enough courage to ignore public opinion to make things the right way and in most cases it turned to be excellent decisions. With no successor I'm seriously afraid they'll eventually resort to safe decisions and become another Samsung/MS/Android/whatever..

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by izacus on Monday July 01, 2019 @06:23AM (#20323989)
> That was the whole purpose of putting it in a bottom. The thing works several months on a single charge and it takes just a couple of hours to recharge. And it starts giving notification at least a day before battery's depleted.

But... why? Logitech managed to build a significantly more comfortable mouse that can still be plugged in while charging. It's a nicer, more usable and practical product.

Aren't you really going out there on a severely stretched limb to defend this mouse design?

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by lyxsus1 on Monday July 01, 2019 @07:47AM (#20324381)
> But... why?

idk exact reasoning, but it seems like they've decided to maximise design focus on primary user experience from device sacrificing almost nothing.

> Logitech managed to build a significantly more comfortable mouse

Can you please prove it by a link? I had to build a specific PC for a work-related project about a year ago, wasn't a pleasure.

> Aren't you really going out there on a severely stretched limb to defend this mouse design?

I honestly don't understand the popular kind of critics that Apple receives. Those details and choices are what hooked me into their products. When I see somebody complains about no CD-ROM in laptop or that mouse charging thing or that monitor stand, it feels more like trolling.

I mean really, more comfortable mouse? Which one is that?

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by izacus on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @06:11AM (#20333685)
Pretty much any mouse is more comfortable and ergonomic than the wrist pain inducing Magic Mouse.

But if you want more concrete models - Logitech's MX Master 2 is incredibly comfortable once you put your hand on it and it's significantly better than anything Apple ever did in mouse area. I can't understate how good it felt to switch away from the Apple's mouse to the Master. And it can even charge while in use and remain connected via both USB receiver and Bluetooth to three devices (which is very useful because you can just leave the USB receiver in the monitor hub and avoid the BT pairing process everytime someone else sits down on a workplace).

If you want a smaller, laptop portable, alternative, MX Anywhere 2 is again a rather comfortable mouse (although nowhere near the Master due to its smaller size) and can still charge while being used.

> I honestly don't understand the popular kind of critics that Apple receives. Those details and choices are what hooked me into their products. When I see somebody complains about no CD-ROM in laptop or that mouse charging thing or that monitor stand, it feels more like trolling.

I don't understand what kind of details are there in the Magic Mouse? It's not comfortable, it doesn't give very clear click feedback, the gestures are finnicky even on macOS... Which mouse are you comparing it to?

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by lyxsus1 on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @07:26AM (#20343305)
I don't think I'll convince you to try the latest MM, so I've ordered the one you've mentioned (Logitech's MX Master 2). It should be delivered to me tomorrow. I'll be using it for at least 1-2 weeks just for the sake of this argument.

After that I'll contact you in this thread and share the results if you're interested. I don't expect your or mine opinion changed, but I guess it'll be stupid not to test.

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by crooked-v on Monday July 01, 2019 @12:59PM (#20327337)
> But... why?

Strain problems with the originally expensive Lightning cables.

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by kkarakk on Monday July 01, 2019 @05:43AM (#20323808)
What happens when the battery conks out? throw away the mouse and buy a new one is what apple wants you to do but most people would prefer the safety net of being able to run wired in case the mouse battery started acting up. Remember this was a wireless mouse at a time when wireless was definitely not the preferred choice
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by lyxsus1 on Monday July 01, 2019 @05:54AM (#20323857)
> What happens when the battery conks out? throw away the mouse and buy a new one

That's the easiest thing to do, yes. But you can bring it to apple care, they do battery replacement for smth like $35 I guess. And if it's factory problem they just replace it, afaik.

> Remember this was a wireless mouse at a time when wireless was definitely not the preferred choice

At the time it had regular batteries you could replace by yourself and we were talking about latest versions. But anyway, I don't see how it can be relevant.

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by wastedhours on Monday July 01, 2019 @07:13AM (#20324214)
I think a lot of people forget the original wireless Magic Mouse was battery powered. I still have mine, and a couple of AAs (I think) will see it running for a good 'ol while. Nothing made me contemplate upgrading, and it's still a darn good experience.
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by dbt00 on Sunday June 30, 2019 @11:44PM (#20322304)
Seriously I never ever ever found this to be a problem when I was using one. It charges from zero to usable in as long as it takes to type “ha ha this mouse charging port is on the bottom” on the internet, and a full charge lasts a long time.

The bad keyboards and no hardware escape key are real problems. Magsafe was a real loss (although of course they lost MagSafe to standardize on a third party standard with usb-c).

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by sneak on Monday July 01, 2019 @04:10AM (#20323379)
The rumor is that USB-C was an Apple invention, quietly pushed into the USB-IF so that it wouldn't have the Apple stink on it, and so that it would become a global hardware standard in the way an "Apple Thing" never could: power and high speed data, in a convenient and reversible plug.

Now they're on Chromebooks, WinTel machines, and the Raspberry Pi.

If the rumor is true, it was a really smooth move by Apple.

It would be an extremely Apple-esque thing to hack an industry-wide movement just so that your laptop could be charged by any power brick made by any manufacturer at any time (even if your competitors get this functionality too).

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by izacus on Monday July 01, 2019 @06:19AM (#20323966)
"The rumor" sounds like rather common history rewriting to from Apple fans. Do you have any sources for that rumor?
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by sneak on Monday July 01, 2019 @11:41PM (#20331944)
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by dannyw on Monday July 01, 2019 @08:19AM (#20324541)
The convergence of USB-C and Thunderbolt 3 (an Apple standard) isn’t an accident, but I doubt Apple covertly pushed it behind the scenes.
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by garmaine on Sunday June 30, 2019 @11:19PM (#20322214)
Actually it's worse--it's explicitly inconvenient to the point of being impossible to use in a wired fashion. The inconvenience of the user is a designed-in feature. They purposefully screwed over the user for aesthetic reasons.

That's messed up.

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by nseggs on Monday July 01, 2019 @12:00AM (#20322376)
Please. "Purposefully screwed over" is pretty dramatic and almost certainly not true. The mouse is sold as wireless. That seems to me a more likely reason it's impossible to use in a wired fashion. It also eliminates the need for a me to keep a giant pack of AA batteries at both my office and home office. It does require power occasionally, but then very briefly and almost never. The OS will also remind you almost comically early that the battery is getting low, and then you just plug it in when you go for lunch or a coffee run. When you get back you're good for another month or something like that.
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by garmaine on Monday July 01, 2019 @01:40PM (#20327779)
My time has value. It has particularly high value when I'm in the middle of working on something. Interruptions in this state have especially high opportunity cost.

We could live in a universe where, when the "battery low" notification pops up I take a few seconds to plug in my mouse and go back to whatever I was working on. Instead, Apple purposefully chose to make me unable to use my mouse for a significant duration of time, at a moment that is NOT of my choosing.

On a laptop this is fine as I have the trackpad. On a desktop workstation (where my time is more valuable!) this means getting up and taking a walk, or getting a cup of coffee at the very least. Those are good activities to do, but only when they fit into my routine. As a sudden abrupt interruption, it is actually a cost. And at my hourly rates, a particularly high one greater than the amount I paid for the mouse in the first place.

So yeah, I do consider that "purposefully screwing over" the user. They could have made another perfectly reasonable design choice that would have had greater functionality, but opted not to for purely ephemeral reasons of branding and image.

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by crehn on Monday July 01, 2019 @12:00AM (#20322375)
Don’t use it wired; it lasts a very long time. A port on the side would break its continuous curve, the sharp contrast of a dark port would be visually jarring (especially since the mouse is small and the overall tone is bright and smooth; it’s relative), and invite unnecessary long-term imperfections (e.g. deformities to the sharp aluminum cut, dust, etc.).

I’m very thankful Apple doesn’t always listen to what “people” want. True creativity (especially in a pervasive aesthetic sense) is rare and most can’t envision new concepts or feelings before experiencing them.

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by untog on Monday July 01, 2019 @12:03AM (#20322380)
> A port on the side would be break its continuous curve, the sharp contrast of a dark port would be visually jarring

This is literally the stuff people make jokes about when they talk about Apple.

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by crehn on Monday July 01, 2019 @12:19AM (#20322431)
Yes, it sounds silly to most. Most people would also say an asymmetric phone notch and chin doesn’t bother them. That’s why pushing pragmatic and perfectionist design (it’s a delicate balance, and Apple isn’t perfect) is difficult. But on a deeper level, most people feel good design and experiences without ever noticing them.

It’s much more pervasive than you think.

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by solarkraft on Monday July 01, 2019 @02:30AM (#20322923)
I dislike Apple for many of their user hostile decisions, but for this I love them. I'm bothered by phone bezels not being consistent, for one example, and Apple are the only ones who seem to care about it as well.
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by woutr_be on Sunday June 30, 2019 @10:58PM (#20322134)
I've used a magic mouse for over 3 years, and I've never ran into a situation where I couldn't use it because it was charging. When I see the battery is low, I plug it in during my next bathroom break, and then fully charge it over night.
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by nkingsy on Sunday June 30, 2019 @11:10PM (#20322182)
I had a Magic Mouse at work and I fought it for days at a time forgetting to charge it when I went home. Thinking about stuff like this is a waste of mental energy.
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by mcv on Monday July 01, 2019 @05:34AM (#20323749)
I also never ran into a situation where I couldn't use it because I didn't buy it because it looked like a tremendously stupid idea. It's entirely possible the idea wasn't as stupid as it looked, but it still looked stupid enough that it cost them sales.
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by mikeash on Sunday June 30, 2019 @11:26PM (#20322236)
That means you never build up a habit, but it still comes up fairly regularly. If you forget to charge it before it dies completely, then you either find another mouse or take a forced break. Not ideal.
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by xienze on Sunday June 30, 2019 @11:01PM (#20322143)
That’s not the point. It looks completely ridiculous coming from a world-renowned designer and company (or anyone, really). It might be excusable if it were a case of “form over function“, but it’s not even that. It’s Apple going to great lengths to avoid putting the charging port in the most obvious place possible, lest someone try to use it as a wired mouse.

That and sticking the Apple Pencil into the iPad’s Lightning port are two of the most baffling design decisions to come out of Apple in recent memory. Well, I take that back, I completely understand why they did the Apple Pencil that way. It’s because doing it the right way would require redesigning the iPad, so ehhh, just stick it in the Lightning port. Another brilliant design by Ive and company!

Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by jen20 on Monday July 01, 2019 @12:32AM (#20322474)
Of course, the next generation of pencil and iPad charges differently - and without question in a more sensible manner. Are you QUITE sure you’re not attributing to incompetence what is obviously better explained by shipping schedule?
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by xienze on Monday July 01, 2019 @03:29AM (#20323194)
I never said it was incompetence, I said it was a rush job. Viewed without any additional context though, one would probably conclude that an incompetent designer had had their hands over such a goofy looking design.
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by mcv on Monday July 01, 2019 @05:31AM (#20323731)
It's a big enough deal that I didn't buy it. I prefer replaceable batteries. Failing that, I want to be able to continue using it while it's charging.
Re:Jony Ive is departing Apple, but he started leaving years... by taneq on Sunday June 30, 2019 @11:44PM (#20322311)
Time was when you'd never see a "poor choice but not that big of a deal" issue with an Apple product. Sure, there were things which would piss you off but they were big bold statements, not minor details.