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Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by jacquesm on Friday June 28, 2019 @08:16PM (#20309937)
That's pretty typical. "I don't need it, so therefore nobody should need it, so therefore I will remove it".

Unix is different things to different people and to remove the network capability from X is a step back, not a step forward. There are a whole pile of neat things that you can do with networked graphics, so much, in fact that Plan 9, in many ways a successor of Unix used that theme as the core of many of the system services. All of them work locally as well as remote.

Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by saltcured on Friday June 28, 2019 @08:52PM (#20310064)
I am suggesting that people need to distinguish remote rendering and remote display. I do not advocate removing the network capability. In fact, I personally have avoided using Wayland for this very reason. But, I am also not volunteering to maintain Xorg myself, so I try to understand where things are going.

Hardly any of the use cases I have heard for networked graphics actually require or even care where the rendering occurs. They are just concerned with application software installed and running in one place causing pixels to appear for a user elsewhere. These could work just fine with remote display streams, with all rendering happening on the same host where the application executes.

I ponder what it is that I really dislike about VNC or RDP, and I find it is the nested desktop and lack of integrated window management. I think I'd be fine with some kind of "rootless" variant to let me SSH-forward a set of windows to a Wayland compositor. I would prefer it to have more flavor of tmux/screen to let me connect and disconnect, and easily define named sessions or groups of windows that I would want to grab together.

Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by chrisseaton on Friday June 28, 2019 @08:54PM (#20310074)
> to remove the network capability from X

They haven’t removed it from X have they? You can keep running X if you want to (you may need to start maintaining it yourself.)

They don’t use it so they don’t want to implement or maintain it. Seems super reasonable to me?

Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Friday June 28, 2019 @08:24PM (#20309966)
The thing is, you don't need explicit support in the display server for remote. RDP works just fine on Windows, yes even single-window forwarding, without it.
Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by jacquesm on Friday June 28, 2019 @08:26PM (#20309980)
RDP is a very weak implementation of what X is capable of functionality wise.
Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by martinald on Friday June 28, 2019 @09:10PM (#20310146)
I thought with the later versions of RDP it somewhat works like remote X, where can pass through a lot of the context and the rendering is done on the clients GPU instead of being rasterized and sent over the network? I've found RDP very snappy in later versions, with very crisp rendering even over relatively low bandwidth connections (order of magnitudes better than VNC).

There's also remoteapp which allows you to just run one program remotely, but haven't got much experience with this.

Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by jacquesm on Saturday June 29, 2019 @08:56AM (#20312311)
RDP got a lot faster due to tapping in at different levels in the rendering engine, but those are mostly optimizations and not how the whole thing is meant to be viewed, it is a 'remote display protocol' that transports what is already visible on some remote screen or memory buffer to another computer for viewing. Shortcuts and optimizations don't really change that, whereas 'X' is at heart a client-server solution.
Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by pjmlp on Saturday June 29, 2019 @04:43AM (#20311507)
Really? Where is the GPGPU support of X?

Last time I checked it was a X extension, if at all.

Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by jacquesm on Saturday June 29, 2019 @07:46AM (#20312034)
> Really? Where is the GPGPU support of X?

What does an optimization have to with anything? So what if X does not have a native GPGPU driver, that's really more a function of hardware manufacturers support than anything else. And if you are not too picky about all your stuff being 'open' then NVidia's X driver and CUDA on linux co-exist just fine with accelerated graphics and GPGPU support.

Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by pjmlp on Saturday June 29, 2019 @08:50AM (#20312291)
It has to do with the protocol, drivers alone aren't enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RemoteFX

Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Friday June 28, 2019 @08:30PM (#20310007)
In what way? Please elaborate.
Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by marktangotango on Friday June 28, 2019 @09:00PM (#20310097)
I’m also interested in hearing GPs thoughts on rdp and x.
Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by jacquesm on Saturday June 29, 2019 @07:55AM (#20312069)
In a nutshell: RDP is a good way to access remote systems that are running a window manager of sorts, X is a good way to have remote clients connect to a local X server (the display).

RDP is more closely related to VNC and something like 'screen' than X, which is more like a networked resource that you can access through remote clients.

RDP is an application sharing protocol, X is a screen sharing protocol, the two are radically different from each other which gives each advantages and disadvantages that the other lacks and a bunch of overlap. Most notably, with X security was bolted on as an afterthought. RDP, originally reading the screen contents and sending those over (compressed) does not allow for much interaction with what gets sent over, it is rather low level whereas X sends over display primitives. Again, X's initial - rather naive - implementation made a ton of assumptions because the original implementors had nice fat workstations and fast networks to work with and so the real-world utility of these features was rather limited.

Anyway, you could write books about this and not get all the details, besides the various implementations of both but all that there is to this is that due to their history and intended application the two are very different beasts and X offers a versatility that not a whole lot of people need but when you need that versatility you need it badly.

Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by a3n on Friday June 28, 2019 @09:20PM (#20310197)
Yeah, I sure liked being able to run RPi apps rendered on my laptop with X.

Per a discussion the other day, my RPis are in a drawer. Have we swapped out screwdrivers for RPis in the modern junk drawer?

Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by delinka on Friday June 28, 2019 @09:56PM (#20310330)
> Have we swapped out screwdrivers for RPis ...

No, they've been added to the screwdrivers. I've found it challenging to use RPi to drive screws.

Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by saalweachter on Friday June 28, 2019 @11:13PM (#20310600)
Surely they can at least manage a flathead.
Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by pjmlp on Saturday June 29, 2019 @04:44AM (#20311510)
I can do the same with WebGL, RDP, VNC.
Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by pjmlp on Saturday June 29, 2019 @04:41AM (#20311499)
Doing graphics at the level of AAA games wasn't surely a Plan 9 distributed network feature.
Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by jacquesm on Saturday June 29, 2019 @04:52AM (#20311529)
It did not necessarily preclude it either, but the networks of the day would have been the limiting factor, not Plan 9.
Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by pjmlp on Saturday June 29, 2019 @06:08AM (#20311737)
Nor the ones from 2019. It remains to be seen if Stadia will succeed where many others failed.
Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by azernik on Friday June 28, 2019 @09:14PM (#20310169)
In practice this is a very niche use case, and the maintenance cost and architectural constraints it imposed are just not worth it.

The Unix philosophy: do one thing, and do it well. If you want a remote renderer, write a piece of software that does just that, specifically.

Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by dredmorbius on Saturday June 29, 2019 @03:19AM (#20311270)
X11 did that. It has clients, doing their client thing, and a server, managing the display details.

Yes, this means that unlike many C-S architectures, the server is the part nearest the user and the client (may be) further away. But each did its respective job and stuck to its knitting.

Keep in mind that when X11 was first created, and for much of its early life, through the 1990s, it was used for remotely accessing another (or multiple other) systems. The networking capability was baked-in. Nevermind that security was bolted on later, here, have a MAGIC_COOKIE....

Re:Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode... by TheDong on Friday June 28, 2019 @11:26PM (#20310648)
> The Unix philosophy: do one thing, and do it well

You're trying to argue that there should be two distinct pieces of software, a local and a remote renderer, for simplicity.

Rendering does not fit in that space well. The physical resource of a display and graphics card really only allows one renderer to run, so it's not really useful to say "just write two renderers, one local and one remote".

The unix philosophy is not a good argument. It's a principal by which you can make decisions, but it doesn't always lead to good decisions and it's quite open to interpretation as well.