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Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by sokoloff on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:19AM (#20182695)
> Those who voluntarily declared their deposit-box holdings would be taxed at a low rate of about 15 percent, he added.

In what world is a wealth tax of 15% a "low rate"?!

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by markvdb on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:29AM (#20182773)
This is about enticing tax evaders to come clean. The 15% rate supposedly includes back taxes on some forms of undeclared income.

Knowing the official Italian tax rates, that would make it a very compelling deal. Many tax evaders would basicly be taxed at a much lower rate than had they paid their taxes correctly in the first place.

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by tecleandor on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:21AM (#20183231)
First income tax bracket in Italy is 23%. In Spain I think I'm paying a bit less than 30%.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/taxes/income-taxe...

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by NightlyDev on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:33AM (#20182801)
Has to be 15 % of the normal tax or something like that. Wealth tax in Italy is rather low, so 15 % of that would probably be more like 0.1 %.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by Lucadg on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:07AM (#20183112)
That's low in Italy where the we are used to 50% taxes.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by sokoloff on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:20AM (#20183218)
Not on wealth, you're not.

Assets sitting in a safety deposit box are wealth, not income. Wealth taxes, where assessed, are typically low single digit percent or sub-1%.

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by tecleandor on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:29AM (#20183287)
This isn't about wealth. They say in the news that they are talking about undeclared income hiding in safes.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by sokoloff on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:06AM (#20183589)
Ah, so it's an income tax evasion holiday (or dirty money cleaning service fee).

Article positioned it like it was a wealth tax (that would apply to legitimate savings as well as ill-gotten gains in safety deposit boxes).

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by kokojie on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:24AM (#20182735)
Some European country tax 90% of income...
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by lm28469 on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:49AM (#20182951)
Yeah, and all americans have guns and ford f150. /s

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-ta...

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by arethuza on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:57AM (#20183018)
Even the US had a 94% tax rate on income over $200,000 in 1944 and 1945:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_State...

Mind you - at the same time it looks like the UK had a comparable taxation rate of over 99%.

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by Strom on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:59AM (#20183040)
Reaching 90% is hard, even if you count additional taxes. Take Sweden, where you first remove 31.42% social tax, then 60% income tax, then 25% VAT. You will still end up with 24% of money left of the initial payroll.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by NightlyDev on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:05AM (#20183094)
If I make a sale in Norway for 100 NOK:

Business VAT: 20 spent (20 %) 80 NOK left.

Income tax: 39 spent (max ~49 %) 41 NOK left.

VAT on purchase: 8.2 spent (20 %) 32.8 NOK left.

67.2 % taxes.

If I spend my money on gas/diesel then I would have ~16 NOK of value left. (84 % taxes)

About 18 % of the income tax I'll get back during my pension.

So 90 % is probably achievable on some things in some countries.

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by mmustapic on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:13AM (#20183159)
You are not spending the first 20 NOK of your sale, you are just collecting them from the customer. If VAT was 0% then your sale would be for 80 NOK.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by NightlyDev on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:30AM (#20183296)
Sure I am. If I didn't have to collect VAT then I could sell for 100 NOK instead.

It's not my money, but I still have to bill for it and pay it. The customer doesn't get a better product or service because of it.

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by sokoloff on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:40AM (#20183367)
If the customer didn't pay the VAT, they'd end up paying their taxes some other way and still have less money to spend on your products.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by manderley on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:28AM (#20182768)
> Some European country tax 90% of income...

This is untrue.

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by NightlyDev on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:54AM (#20182995)
If I make a sale in Norway for 100 NOK:

Business VAT: 20 spent (20 %) 80 NOK left.

Income tax: 39 spent (max ~49 %) 41 NOK left.

VAT on purchase: 8.2 spent (20 %) 32.8 NOK left.

67.2 % taxes.

If I spend my money on gas/diesel then I would have ~16 NOK of value left. (84 % taxes)

About 18 % of the income tax I'll get back during my pension.

So 90 % is probably achievable on some things in some countries.

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by plantain on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:04AM (#20183079)
Huh? Why are you accounting for VAT twice? Either you consider that the business 'pays' the VAT or you 'pay' the VAT, you don't get it both ways.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by NightlyDev on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:20AM (#20183222)
It is both ways, for me. My business pays VAT on sales, and I personally pay VAT on purchases, so for me and my business VAT will be paid twice. Both for what I sold and what I(personally) purchased.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by plantain on Friday June 14, 2019 @02:48PM (#20185591)
Either the consumer is paying the VAT or the business. You can't say that the business pays the VAT when you are the business, but the consumer pays the VAT when you are the consumer. If you frame it as you "personally purchased" something and paid VAT, then what you sold as a business to someone else was "personally purchased" and had the VAT paid by them too.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by mrzool on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:30AM (#20182779)
Source? European, never heard of this. Though a 15% rate is pretty normal around here.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by NightlyDev on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:35AM (#20182815)
Income tax? Sure. Wealth tax? No, of course not, then investments would basically never be a good idea.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by Symbiote on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:51AM (#20182969)
It's existed in the past.

Look up the lyrics for the Beatles song "Taxman", "There's one for you, nineteen for me".

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by jankotek on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:50AM (#20182964)
I recall income tax over 110%. It was author in scandinavian country.

70% is pretty normal if you count all compulsory insurances.

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by oarsinsync on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:54AM (#20182990)
That seems unlikely. Work and earn 100, and owe the government 110; or dont work / earn 0, owe the government 0?

Being net negative for productivity is literally counterproductive.

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by jankotek on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:59AM (#20183038)
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by scott_s on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:16AM (#20183191)
The accepted answer explains why that is not a tax over 100%.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by jules on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:12AM (#20183147)
That's marginal tax rate. Many people pay an effective marginal tax rate of more than 100% if you include government programs like social housing. In fact, when you earn around €2200/month here, it is possible to end up with net less than if you don't work at all, due to various programs.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by mises on Friday June 14, 2019 @09:55AM (#20183003)
This isn't even a tax. Here's the dictionary definition: "A compulsory contribution to state revenue, levied by the government on workers' income and business profits, or added to the cost of some goods, services, and transactions." (google)

Taxing is adding a cost to an existing transaction, not taking a cut of money arbitrarily. The idea of a wealth tax is literally the government just stealing money. The American government, for instance couldn't do this. We had to pass an amendment to allow income tax; there is no such amendment for "wealth tax". This is a result of Pollock v Farmers' Loan and Trust Co., which affirmed the government directly stealing wealth is unconstitutional. If you'd rather call it theft or confiscation, fine, but not a tax.

Most importantly, we've got the Fifth Amendment: "nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation". This means that you could only impose a "wealth tax" if you convinced a court to rule that ninety-nine cents was just compensation for a dollar.

I guess we're just moving closer to "the mob" seizing the property of others, just because its constituents want it more.

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by jcranmer on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:11AM (#20183139)
> This isn't even a tax.

It's a variation on wealth taxes. If the dictionary doesn't consider that to be a tax, then the dictionary definition is wrong. Notably, that definition also seems to imply that property taxes aren't taxes, despite them being millennia old.

> This is a result of Pollock v Farmers' Loan and Trust Co., which affirmed the government directly stealing wealth is unconstitutional.

That is a horribly misleading summary. Pollock said a tax on rental income is effectively equivalent to a tax on the property itself, and since property taxes are direct taxes, such taxes must be apportioned to the states according to population per the Constitution. (Hence why the 16th amendment, whose sole purpose was to overturn Pollock, refers to "income, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States").

Most notably, the Constitution explicitly refers to this kind of tax using the word "tax," and explicitly permits Congress to levy this kind of tax (albeit with some conditions), so your assertion that this kind of tax is not a tax is flatly contradicted by the people who wrote the basic instruments of the US government.

Not to mention that the US Constitution hardly matters at all when discussing the ability of Italy to levy taxes on its own citizens and residents, unless Italy became a US state in the past few days...

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by coldtea on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:04AM (#20183075)
>I guess we're just moving closer to "the mob" seizing the property of others, just because its constituents want it more.

Well, the law is either what some people want to be or what a majority/plurality of people want to be.

The first is not very democratic and can be self serving for the private interests of a few.

If the latter however want a wealth tax, or even if they propose that "90% of wealth should be made public" then that could be made into law, regardless of what the constitution says.

That wouldn't be "mob" but just law.

In fact, the "Fifth Amendment" is already an amendment, showing that the constitution is already not a un-alterable source of divine guidance.

At some point, perhaps the whole of the constitution could be considered a BS product of its own time, and replaced with a different set of operating rules.

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by leetcrew on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:12AM (#20183148)
what is desired by a majority/plurality of citizens is pretty much orthogonal to justice.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by coldtea on Friday June 14, 2019 @11:48AM (#20183922)
Actually it's the very definition of justice.

That's how justice was developed and has always worked since day one.

Aside from hearing God voices, we don't have any other.

It's just that in our days we pretend that we have some "specialists" discussing the finer points.

But something without the people behind it it's not justice, just like something without a power to enforce it it's not law.

When somebody says "What the majority considers justice is not justice" they really only say "My arbitrary idea of justice is better than other people's".

As a cultural thing, justice is only what the culture (shaped by the people) considers as such.

(One could only argue about what's more useful (utilitarianism) but that also needs a commonly defined desired outcome and a somewhat agreed upon utility function).

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by leetcrew on Friday June 14, 2019 @12:33PM (#20184310)
I'm not going to claim that I have a better definition for justice, but aggregate opinion seems like an especially poor one. if the majority ethnic group in some country democratically votes to exterminate some minority group, is it just? I could more easily accept the claim that "justice" doesn't exist than that I would be forced to recognize positively that a genocide was just.
Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by coldtea on Saturday June 15, 2019 @01:04PM (#20190888)
>If the majority ethnic group in some country democratically votes to exterminate some minority group, is it just?

For them it is. In Germany during the war what they did wasn't considered unjust (like in the South during legal slavery). And if the majority on earth agreed, it would be considered a-ok (like before countries started abolishing slavery, when it was just a normal thing for most peoples all over the world).

We do have some escape hatches from "it's just what most say it is", but those are based on religious and cultural ideas (including "scientific" conceptions of justice in the latter camp).

I think in the end: justice as an operative thing is what most people say it is (it can't be anything else). But there's also some common shared sense of justice, not well defined and not easily enforceable at all cases (e.g. one couldn't enforce it in WWII Germany), but which contains a core of the only universal notion of justice (don't cause harm without reason, don't kill, don't steal, etc).

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by clarkmoody on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:10AM (#20183134)
You're forgetting the effective "wealth tax" of inflation that hurts everyone across the board, except for those favored interests with access to the newly-printed money.

Of course, the effects of inflation are felt most strongly by the poor and those on fixed income, for whom the rising cost of basic goods means that their meager income purchases less and less each year.

Re:Italy proposes tax on savings hidden in safety deposit boxes by sokoloff on Friday June 14, 2019 @10:51AM (#20183471)
That dictionary definition was probably written in a place that doesn't have a wealth tax.

Even that dictionary definition misses property tax, which is surely a tax.