Learning how to install and configure development environments is an important skill in general, but I'm not convinced having those skills as a prerequisite for exploring programming as a newbie is at all valuable.

It is valuable if they start out with python 3 instead of python 2.

I'd say that depends on what kind of newbie we're talking about.

On macOS the best config-free entry to programming is Swift and Swift Playgrounds. Everything else can have config and shell hell for further more advanced learning purposes.

You still have to download Xcode, of course.

I'm sure that my kids will certainly love to hear that they have to learn Unix in order to learn a build system in order to try out Python. It's all part of the "learning process for newbies."

> learn Unix in order to learn a build system in order to try out Python

I definitely understand that the installation process for things like python can be confusing to non-programmers, but I think this is a bit disingenuous. You don't have to learn a build system to install it; python was the first programming language I ever learned, and I used it years before I ever even had any idea what a build system is.

Good grief. What's wrong with going to www.python.org/downloads/ and clicking the big button at the top that says "Download the latest version for Mac OS X"?

If you can't even download an installer and run it, then yeah, maybe not quite ready for programming either.

Please forgive my snark, but this would be exactly my thought process as a reasonably competent computer user who wanted to learn Python.

He’s right though.

When I was six years old, learning to program involved turning on the computer and typing

  10 print “hello”
  run

That’s what I want for my kids. And there’s nothing even remotely like it in today’s world.

Open Terminal

    $ echo "hello"

seems pretty much the same to me.

Even on Windows you can open the browser console and do

    > console.log("hello")

Just for teaching basic prints, variables, loops and functions, terminal bash on macOS/Linux or Javascript console work just as well as Commodore 64 BASIC.

The problem is not that the environment is not available or setup is too difficult. The problem is that there's now way more competition from other shinies readily available (web, apps, games, videos). Even if you boot your home PC straight into a terminal, as soon as the kids find the way to a web browser it's game over. Even on 1980s home micros, if the kids got access to (pirated) games, practically none would volunterily keep on programming BASIC.

Teaching bash scripting as an introduction to programming? Surely there are laws against that kind of cruelty?

It's certainly not any worse than BASIC on 1980s home micro's. (IMO it's not any worse than Python either.)

When you were 6 years old is a different time from now. You probably did not have an always-on connection. There was probably no such thing as Web 2.0. Computers were more difficult to use. Google did not exist. The Internet was perhaps still taking off...

And then I remember that there wasn't much more to offer, because most "fun" functionality involved POKE'ing 'random' memory addresses.

Installing the version you need when you want to run a script is arguably easier for newbies than all the error messages arising from an out of date implementation originally included with an OS.

it's not like installing python is any more complicated than any other piece of software that needs to be installed. Windows users have had no choice but to do that for decades.

> Windows users have had no choice but to do that for decades.

You're saying this like it's a good thing.

It's not a good thing or a bad thing. I'm saying it's not a thing at all.

If someone decides they want to run a custom ruby or python script the least difficult aspect of that decision is installing the interpreter. For example, I was dealing with someone yesterday who decided they wanted to learn how to write apps for Android. Without even seeing a single line of code (or even knowing which language they would have to learn!!) they had already successfully installed Android Studio and Jetbrains IDEA.

Without coming across as some gatekeeping greybeard, I think anyone who has even a glancing interest in programming would agree if you can't follow a one-line/click installation instruction you may want to find a simpler tool for the task than writing your own code from scratch.

Lots of people on just this thread, who have far more than a glancing interest, have expressed their disagreement with this exact idea.

The hardest part for lots of people in learning to program is getting over the idea that programming is for Special People, or possibly Wizards, who know lots of incantations which are beyond mere mortals. Please stop trying to convince them they're right.

Source: I've taught lots of marketing people, admins, call center techs, etc to program in PowerShell or system Python.

On the contrary, not teaching people how to install the interpreter just perpetuates the idea that it is beyond the ken of mere mortals. And that only "Wizards" should do it.

Installing the interpreter is nothing special. It should be taught as such.