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Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by dasil003 on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @11:42AM (#20105548)
I’ve done multi-year stints of both, and it’s highly contextual. For ICs I get the quiet and focus is a net win (assuming proper self-motivation and no social isolation issues). However for high-level or cross-functional collaboration there is no online tool that approaches the bandwidth of two people in a room with a whiteboard. The energy in person, serendipity and the ideas that come from prolonged close collaboration (especially in a startup) is hard to quantify but it’s real. It’s not optimal for everyone all the time, but then neither is full remote.
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by pdimitar on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @02:03PM (#20107332)
The energy in a person bears zero relevance to how good their idea is, though.

I found remote team code reviews to be much more objective. That way most people aren't worried they'll shame someone in person and they give better and more useful feedback.

The energy you speak of, while very real, is not related to the quality of the work that will follow.

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by joshuamorton on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @04:03PM (#20108535)
You're talking about two different things. I work almost entirely non-remote. If all I did was write code, I could do so remote. I collaborate with people in 3 continents, probably 10 timezones, maybe more, many of whom I've never met in person, when it comes to code.

But design is a different beast. Collaborative design of complex systems has a few stages. There's a rapid prototyping stage where 3 people in a room bouncing ideas off of each other and scribbling is better than anything else I've done. Then you circle back with a document that formalizes things (like an RFC). The second part can be done with a distributed group. But the first part is better when people are close to each other. You see this even in distributed groups like OSS projects. They have conferences and work sprints where the maintainers can be colocated for a bit and brainstorm about things in person.

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by pdimitar on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @04:10PM (#20108605)
Sure, but you are not actually contradicting me as far as I can see.

I too collaborate with colleagues in different time zones but design and tons of brain-storming is not the main focus of our work. When we need to do that, we do long video calls with shared diagrams -- or we just scribble with the mouse. Works quite alright 99% of the time.

I agree that the rapid initial stages of a project are best done in person but failing that, there are replacements, and they are not as bad as many in this mega-thread claim.

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by joshuamorton on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @04:21PM (#20108719)
My point is that that rapid prototyping stage is really important, has long lasting consequences, and so optimizing for it is a reasonable decision.

And that's just one reason to disfavor a remote-only environment.

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by pdimitar on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @05:03PM (#20109119)
Rapid prototyping happens only once per project and is likely less than 1% of the time spent so to me it does not make sense to optimise for it.

What other reasons do you see to disfavor a remote-only environment?

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by nemetroid on Thursday June 06, 2019 @10:48AM (#20115052)
Rapid prototyping should happen every time you need to add or change an abstraction. With the way many (most?) software projects work, with new feature requests and requirements appearing along the way, this happens all the time. With new requirements, the old abstraction often doesn't fit 100% anymore. Applying a few band-aids to the abstraction is probably fine, but at some point you will need to reconsider the design, or you will end up with a design that does not match the problem it's solving, making the code difficult to follow and therefore error prone.

In my experience, this need arises very frequently in complex systems with evolving requirements.

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by pdimitar on Thursday June 06, 2019 @11:00AM (#20115174)
Oh, don't get me wrong. I fully agree! What I was saying is that the initial rapid prototyping of a project is happening only once.

Our company offered us to sometimes reconvene physically and discuss such things but since our team are all family men, it hasn't happened yet. But it is a really good idea and we should reconsider actually doing it sometime.

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by eloff on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @07:43PM (#20110193)
That 1% (and is often more like 5 or 10) can have big implications, but you can just have an on-site, it's a lot cheaper than having an office year round. Plus you can do it somewhere fun and it's a great perk and team building exercise.
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by c0vfefe on Friday June 07, 2019 @10:40AM (#20124990)
> that rapid prototyping stage is really important

This is an excellent argument for annual all-hands retreats for distributed companies.

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by joshuamorton on Friday June 07, 2019 @11:36AM (#20125608)
So you're going to discuss all your designs in February? What if you need to make a major modification to a design, or like some priority changes or whatever.

The whole idea of agile is to design iteratively and reactively, but you're throwing that away.

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by c0vfefe on Friday June 07, 2019 @12:16PM (#20126102)
I suppose if your process relies on that type of design happening regularly, remote work is not going to allow for that. But I don't think colocation is a requirement of iterative & reactive design.
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by GFischer on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @04:46PM (#20108951)
I work on a remote office, and while I definitely agree that the rapid prototyping stage works better in-person, current tools help a lot - we have a pretty large app that was built 100% remotely (I did ask for in-person meetings but there was no budget).

Honestly, you can collaborate and do almost everything remotely. What does lose a bit is team building, you have to go a bit out of your way to build rapport (but it´s also doable).

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by whateveracct on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @10:48PM (#20111164)
I'm still learning how to be more personal while remote. An always-open casual video chat room is a fun idea (especially if you have a screen with it always open in the office!). Games (while on video chat) might also be fun.
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by ilaksh on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @04:15PM (#20108663)
Have you ever used a video conference or collaborative online whiteboard? If the actual scribbling is important, have you heard of these things called drawing tablets?
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by joshuamorton on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @04:19PM (#20108707)
Yes, in fact the company I work for provides, bar none, the best experience for video conferencing and collaborative online whiteboarding I've ever used. We go to great lengths to reduce latency and make the discussion feel as natural as possible.

Its still, at least to me, markedly less productive, than an in-person meeting.

Like I said, conferences, summits, etc. These are done for a reason. Not to mention that there's some research I've seen that suggests that places like Bell were so successful because they cultivated happenstance interactions between smart people that don't happen in distributed environments.

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by GFischer on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @04:50PM (#20108983)
I think that conferences, etc, build up on the human element and are important, but not for the reasons you mention.

My current belief is that a 95% remote team works, you do need in-person opportunities, the more the better, but at least once in a project can be enough.

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by dasil003 on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @03:30PM (#20108250)
Are you saying you produce the same work at all energy levels?
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by pdimitar on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @03:37PM (#20108309)
I don't see how this is related to the previous matter discussed -- namely that the energy projected by another person is somehow helpful for work getting done.
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by dasil003 on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @05:08PM (#20109156)
I was not talking about the energy "projected by another person", I was speaking much more generally than that.
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by pdimitar on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @05:11PM (#20109182)
Okay. I was commenting on that particular aspect. Still, feel free to elaborate if you wish. The discussion on the remote work is always interesting.
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by closeparen on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @01:50PM (#20107142)
I think this is more or less the consensus opinion among managers, which is why we mostly have office jobs that support some WFH rather than fully in office or fully remote.
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by geekbird on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @06:21PM (#20109733)
IMO, that's because managers favor butts-in-seats and the idea that they can "see you working".

IME the only people who actually like open plan offices are managers, extroverts, and flakes, most of whom irritate non-managers, introverts, and non-flakes.

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by oblio on Thursday June 06, 2019 @05:53AM (#20112997)
1. I'm an extrovert and I don't like open plan offices. I'm not a manager and I'm probably not a flake, I'd say :p

2. Your tone is super condescending, regarding the extrovert - introvert bit.

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by closeparen on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @06:24PM (#20109748)
The managers I’m referring to don’t need to see you working. They want you to see you collaborating and socializing with the team in person, but are fine with you doing your actual coding at home and rarely if ever touching your desk. The office is open plan but usually pretty empty, as everyone is either in conference rooms or at home.
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by thebigspacefuck on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @02:01PM (#20107305)
It seems like there isn't a great digital replacement for a whiteboard yet. Maybe a tablet and stylus, but I haven't used a digital whiteboard enough to justify buying or setting one up. Incorporating the stylus/tablet into laptops isn't a new idea, but I've never owned a work laptop with that feature.
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by nvrspyx on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @02:33PM (#20107691)
There are, but they’re expensive. There’s Google’s Jamboard and Microsoft’s Studio Hub as a couple of examples. You could also go the iPad and Apple Pencil route and just use similar apps, or the apps for those products (i.e. Microsoft Whiteboard app), but that’s still fairly expensive if that’s all they’re used for.
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by ilaksh on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @04:19PM (#20108704)
There are lots of inexpensive online whiteboard programs that work fine. You just need to get used to typing and using the drawing tools, or buy a drawing tablet if that's really important to you. You can get ok graphics tablets for $25.
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by mrhappyunhappy on Thursday June 06, 2019 @12:10PM (#20115899)
A real whiteboard with video feed? Or do you mean for collaboration?
Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by mindfulmonkey on Thursday June 06, 2019 @09:59AM (#20114604)
> there is no online tool that approaches the bandwidth of two people in a room with a whiteboard.

VR will change that at some point. Even in today's infancy, there are some VR apps that give you that sense of presence with all the other tools needed and then some (whiteboards, screen-sharing, projecting your desktop on a huge screen, etc...)

Re:Why aren’t more companies remote-first? by ilaksh on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @04:13PM (#20108638)
A videochat and whiteboard application would at least approach that bandwidth. If necessary get drawing tablets also.