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Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by andy_ppp on Saturday June 01, 2019 @06:57PM (#20072268)
I really hate this trope that is wheeled out about Japanese accomodation; the flats that people talk about would be considered too small to live in by western standards. Most of them seem to be made of horrendous cheap plastic prefab; you get a corridor with a kitchen in it, a mezzanine to sleep on above said corridor that is too small to sit upright, a 7'x'7 living area and a bathroom (including toilet) that is about 2ft x 2ft.

For this delight there are people being charged $1000 per month or more in rent.

Add in the fact that Japanese have an extremely different relationship to property culterally (and due to earth quake fears) means propeerties are often knocked down and rebuilt (the article notes this - 600000 new homes for an ageing population seems like most of those are going to immigrants).

A lot of people in Europe prefer the shared living, and it is better use of resources - you only need one bathroom/one living room per 3 people and those can be MUCH nicer than these micro appartments.

London and the west also have different cultural values about building high rise property and overlooking neighbours. It's fine that Japan doesn't mind a sky scraper being built overshadowing their homes but for Londoners or elsewhere this is simply unacceptable to suggest we can change our whole culture to Japanese values and magically solve housing problems.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by SECProto on Saturday June 01, 2019 @11:13PM (#20073231)
> the flats that people talk about would be considered too small to live in by western standards. Most of them seem to be made of horrendous cheap plastic prefab; you get a corridor with a kitchen in it, a mezzanine to sleep on above said corridor that is too small to sit upright, a 7'x'7 living area and a bathroom (including toilet) that is about 2ft x 2ft.

What are you talking about? That sounds like the kind of accommodation so rare that it gets articles written [1] for being so innovative. Apartments in Japan are small, but I have never seen one like that except on the internet, or in Hong Kong.

As a counterpoint, the typical small single occupant housing I saw in Japan had the following characteristics: solid concrete construction, a narrow kitchen (double burner with fish broiler, sink, counter, rice cooker, and microwave, with cupboards above and below), a small living room plus a small tatami bedroom to the side (though these spaces likely aren't separate in denser cities), a closet-sized toilet room, and a larger room with bath.

So yes, they are certainly smaller than anything you find in most western countries - but that is because zoning makes it illegal.

{1} https://www.livingbiginatinyhouse.com/tiny-tokyo-apartment/

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by osdiab on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:37AM (#20073675)
For a real-life anecdote, last year I lived in Tokyo in a 6 jo apartment (tatami bed + living room around 110 sq ft + about equal size bathroom and kitchen), and my rent 40 minutes by train from Shibuya station and 15 minutes from Kichijoji (#1 most livable Tokyo neighborhood) was around $430/mo.

I have also heard that prefab is really common - in fact just walking around Tokyo it does look like there's a ton of prefab houses. That said I've toured around some and been inside some, and they were very comfortable, more so than my current rickety San Francisco apartment and similarly to brand new NYC ones I've been in - so I don't consider them lower quality than what I typically see in American cities just because they're prefab. Rather it's far more efficient and that keeps costs down.

There is something to be said about traditional Japanese living being more space-efficient - folding out your futon means that you don't have to have separate permanent bedrooms, dining rooms etc like a Western apartment would have, which allows for you to have a decent living in ~220 sq ft like I did - but if you want to live like a Westerner, you will have to pay up for that, and I do hear that Western style apartments are more popular these days.

After living in San Francisco, I felt like I had hit the jackpot, but as it turns out that's just "normal" in a functioning city.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by samhain on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:53AM (#20075158)
I've been looking at dome houses and found some pre-fab Japanese dome homes[1] that are certified by the Japanese "Minister of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism" [2]. The round ones range from about 290 square feet to 480 square feet. They are packed less densely than I imagine most Japanese housing, but they are still quite small by western standards.

1: https://www.i-domehouse.com/case/project_house/plan_00004.ht...

2: https://www.i-domehouse.com/page03.html

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by nihonde on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:09PM (#20072337)
On the other hand, there are virtually zero homeless people in Japan (certainly outside Tokyo) while they are seemingly everywhere in every Western city...so perhaps the quality of the bathroom accommodations aren’t really the point. I think you’re closer when you talk about cultural attitudes to “home”, but I’m not referring to some hokey ancient wisdom of the Far East.

The fact is that it’s perfectly fine, even normal, to live in a “one room” in Japan. No one is going to shame you for it.

I actually think some one-room apartments are super cozy, and feel like nice dorms.

If you consider sento/public baths, you’ve got your shared public resources.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by seanmcdirmid on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:01AM (#20073560)
Uh, there are plenty of homeless in Tokyo, they do keep it tidier I guess. There are also homeless in Osaka and Nagoya. I assume other big cities have homeless, but I’ve only been to (and seen them) in these three cities.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by osdiab on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:21AM (#20073632)
That said it's nothing compared to the homeless situation in SF. My Japanese gf visited SF for 2 months, and she was seriously shocked by how horrible the homelessness situation was. She never imagined any developed country could have such awful conditions, and felt like she was in "the city of the walking dead."

So that's the reputation American cities are getting internationally. Something to really be ashamed about.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by rangibaby on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:07AM (#20073776)
There are three groups of homeless in the west that don’t exist in Japan:

1. Japan didn’t dump all of their institutionalized mental people on the street.

2. For whose who are actually poor and need help there is subsidized housing (eg UR Chintai) and ok benefits if your income is low enough.

3. There is a large and bored police force, so people acting out and drug addicts don’t last long on the street.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by smcl on Sunday June 02, 2019 @05:32AM (#20074426)
For point 3, it sounds like you’re saying that Japan has either a more abusive or cruel police force than the USA or a larger proportion of people locked up. I can only go by news stories and reputation, but I’d be really surprised if either of these were true.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by Hamuko on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:17AM (#20075592)
No really, the best word to describe their police force is "bored".

https://www.economist.com/asia/2017/05/18/as-crime-dries-up-...

Police officers spent a week of their time watching an unlocked trap car with a crate of beer inside it.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by philwelch on Sunday June 02, 2019 @05:59AM (#20074506)
It’s not “cruel” to enforce the law, nor does it require mass incarceration because people react to incentives. I suspect Japanese culture may be another important factor, however.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by seanmcdirmid on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:56AM (#20073728)
Japan has poverty and mental illness just like the states, but somehow they are more organized about “being homeless” and pooping in the street isn’t acceptable.

That being said, I’ve seen much worse in India and SE Asia, but developing countries will be like that.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by coliveira on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:34AM (#20073872)
There is no way to compare India to the US. Homelessness in the US is a matter of (lack of) policy and indifference.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by nihonde on Sunday June 02, 2019 @06:33AM (#20074612)
There are about 13,000 homeless in all of Japan, a nation of about 130 million people. They’re almost all men whose careers bottomed out and they fell out of the system in their 40s/50s.

There is a woman who runs a program to move homeless men from the cities to rural areas that are short on labor. Her organization offers to relocate them and train them for agricultural work. Most of the homeless men she finds are willing to work but have fallen into a spiral of shame and are paralyzed by it.

Japan is a tough place if you have thin skin or are prone to self pity. You can basically be cut from the team if you aren’t a player. You’ll find hikikomori and others who can’t keep up lurking beneath the surface—-often they fail a test or disappoint someone and never recover. Usually, these people have a home, though, with family or someone who takes them in.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by nihonde on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:41PM (#20076482)
Here is the link to an article about the woman who retrains homeless to work on farms, if anyone is interested: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/04/09/national/kanaga...
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by strken on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:16PM (#20072386)
I wish that regulators would stop assuming that "cultural values" are more important to me than paying half as much rent, and that I shouldn't be allowed to live in a cheap studio with a built in mezzanine.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by ShorsHammer on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:56AM (#20073729)
I've said this repeatedly about Sydney, plenty of people would live in capsule homes given the chance. For a lot of people in the inner city you don't actually spend that much time at home besides sleeping.

Local landowners would lose their minds though.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by andy_ppp on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:28PM (#20072445)
They aren't, there are no regulations on this. I hope you get what you wish for.
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by strken on Saturday June 01, 2019 @08:11PM (#20072614)
There are usually quite a lot of regulations on dwellings, often including room size, layout, window placement, ceiling height, etc.

The specific "guidelines" for places I've lived are:

https://www.planning.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0030/...

http://default.sfplanning.org/publications_reports/residenti...

The San Francisco guidelines are particularly onerous, but the Victorian guidelines still set e.g. minimum sizes for bedrooms and living areas.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by geofft on Saturday June 01, 2019 @08:03PM (#20072581)
Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by JumpCrisscross on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:52PM (#20072543)
> there are no regulations on this

Of course there are. FAR limits, zoning rules, all manner of review processes inhibiting construction, et cetera.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by JumpCrisscross on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:04PM (#20072316)
> London and the west also have different cultural values

That’s the article’s point. Housing shortages are a political choice.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by c0nfused on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:08PM (#20072335)
I think it's not quite as vigorous in opposition as that. The argument is more that housing shortages are a result of how we in the west regulate construction and housing leasing to under supply.

I'm not a Londoner, but my american city of about 1 million people has more than 60 different residential zonings. My home can be a single family home, a day care, or a coffee shop with up to 2 employees who reside off the property itself. Additionally, the house is in a historic district and no changes to the exterior may be made that are visible from the alley or street can be made with out approval by the city via application and subsequent public forum.

I can see how this would strangle growth of housing supply as the place grows.

Re:Tokyo proves that housing shortages are a political choice by momokoko on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:30PM (#20072454)
Not to mention that the US Dollar and the UK Pound are much more attractive for foreign investment than the Japanese Yen. We can easily measure this by comparing Japanese bond demand with that of the US, UK and Europe. Not to mention that Japan is not currently an attractive place for Chinese investment for reasons I will not go into here.

Real estate is going up due to foreign investment. We are watching in real time as the slowdown in China is showing a direct correlation with west coast US and west coast Canadian real estate markets cooling. Buffalo, NY, and many other rust belt cities, have seen significant increases in housing prices while their populations decrease rapidly.

I second how boring listening to the trope about Japanese real estate prices when it has nothing to do with attitudes towards building. North Dakota has little to no zoning restrictions and we certainly don't see those prices staying in reasonable amounts.

It is so obviously false to anyone even remotely involved in investment or real estate, that I sometimes wonder if there is some kind of agenda that pushes this nonsense outside of your typical internet obsessive ideologies.