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Re:Programmers should stop calling themselves engineers (2015) by roenxi on Sunday May 26, 2019 @04:02AM (#20013702)
Companies work by dividing all tasks into smaller tasks and parceling them up among the employees, aiming to specialise to knowledge of individual workers.

'Engineer' can mean a couple of different things depending on culture & context, including I think a 'person who works on engines'. However, professional engineers are technical decision makers.

A good engineer will think through a project from start to finish, anticipate all the decisions that will come up, and make them. Not obvious trivial decisions like 'does the bolt need tightening' but the big picture ones like 'is this standard acceptable?', 'is this trade off acceptable?'.

Big companies separate engineering from programming. Small companies will not have the resources, so the roles will be combined. Adding a dependency, changing an API and choosing major data structures are all engineering decisions. Deciding how comprehensive the testing framework needs to be. Maybe some algorithm choices.

Typing Python code is not engineering. Implementing some well established algorithm like Quicksort is not engineering. Doing something using an API because someone told you to is not engineering. Writing a unit testing is probably not engineering. Move-fast-and-break-things is not engineering, although it does seem to work very well.

There is overlap. I don't see why someone who is making big picture decisions shouldn't call themselves an engineer. Being regulated and certified is only mandatory if the government says it is.

Re:Programmers should stop calling themselves engineers (2015) by amelius on Sunday May 26, 2019 @06:04AM (#20014112)
> Implementing some well established algorithm like Quicksort is not engineering.

How about when it involves getting the best possible performance out of the given hardware architecture?

Re:Programmers should stop calling themselves engineers (2015) by roenxi on Sunday May 26, 2019 @07:34PM (#20018309)
No rule is free from exceptions I suppose. The distinction I'm trying to draw is between the decision to use QuickSort and the actual implementation - so if someone is thinking ahead and decides that QuickSort is the best option on a given architecture (considering a couple of options) is doing engineering.

Someone who codes up QuickSort is probably, at the time of coding, not making engineering decisions because the decisions inside a QuickSort implementation have largely already been made. This is simply a view on where the dividing line sits between an engineering decision and something else.

Re:Programmers should stop calling themselves engineers (2015) by pojzon on Sunday May 26, 2019 @04:40AM (#20013849)
By your definition, anyone who is a full stack developer is actually a software engineer.

To be honest any decent dev is interchangeable between positions in a corporation, its simply better for your career.

I can create whole systems from ground to top, from design through backend and frontend with infrastructure and orchestration. Can i call myself an Engineer then ?..

Re:Programmers should stop calling themselves engineers (2015) by roenxi on Sunday May 26, 2019 @07:41PM (#20018341)
> Can i call myself an Engineer then ?..

Legally, I don't know. Personally, if you might be making a lot of engineering decisions then I wouldn't object. I would probably consider a lot of full stack developers to be basically engineers.

A FSD isn't necessarily making engineering decisions though. I can imagine a FSD who is expected to make all elements of a stack work together without having any real control over what composes the stack - maybe doing bugfixing, configuration and integrating new bits on demand. That wouldn't be engineering to me because there isn't a lot of control over high-level decisions.

Re:Programmers should stop calling themselves engineers (2015) by pjmlp on Sunday May 26, 2019 @05:35AM (#20014019)
If you have an university degree, validated by the Order as providing the necessary knowledge to be one, then go ahead.
Re:Programmers should stop calling themselves engineers (2015) by pbourke on Sunday May 26, 2019 @04:56AM (#20013900)
> Big companies separate engineering from programming.

I’m curious which companies you mean. Everywhere that I’ve seen, most people who write code are called engineers.

TBH, it just seems like “developer” or “programmer” has been mostly supplanted by “engineer” by way of title inflation, starting with big tech companies and valley-style startups.

Re:Programmers should stop calling themselves engineers (2015) by chronogram on Sunday May 26, 2019 @05:03AM (#20013916)
It's a bit of a common trend in the US. Everyone who works in the medical field is called a doctor, a general partnership already has a CEO, and you are what makes you feel good.

I think it's fine, really, it's not really hurting anyone.

Re:Programmers should stop calling themselves engineers (2015) by pjmlp on Sunday May 26, 2019 @05:33AM (#20014016)
A professional title brings a certain level of expectations regarding the quality of work.

It is hurting everyone at the end of delivery chain.

Until people start doing returns in mass for software that breaks fast and fails to deliver, this won't change most likely.

As a teacher of mine used to say, feels like buying shoes that explode when tied the wrong way.

Re:Programmers should stop calling themselves engineers (2015) by chronogram on Sunday May 26, 2019 @07:04AM (#20014289)
Yes agreed. So when a German says they're an "Ingeneur" you have a certain level of expectations with the title, and probably shouldn't ask them for advice on your React app. If an American says they're an "engineer" you know they're exactly the one to advise you on the React app.