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Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by mdorazio on Friday May 24, 2019 @01:42PM (#20003727)
If you need evidence that our economy is at least partly broken, this is it right here. Companies that are swimming in cash reserves are using their money to artificially boost shareholder returns instead of actually investing in things like capital expenditures, R&D, or higher salaries. On one hand (as the article points out), this is driven by cheap credit, but on the other hand I think the question needs to be asked: have large corporations just run out of things worth investing in?
Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by jandrese on Friday May 24, 2019 @01:50PM (#20003782)
> have large corporations just run out of things worth investing in?

Businesses don't expand just because capital is cheap, they need some kind of demand to fill. That's the fundamental problem with "trickle down" economics, it assumes the economy is supply constrained when it is more commonly demand constrained. And worse, the polices that it produces tend to squeeze the lower and middle classes, further reducing demand.

Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by padobson on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:43PM (#20004195)
That's the fundamental problem with "trickle down" economics, it assumes the economy is supply constrained when it is more commonly demand constrained.

I was of the understanding that most orthodox schools of economics fundamentally view demand as infinite. Supply-siders hope to meet demand by increasing supply, lowering prices, and making more goods available to those with fewer resources. Policy-wise, this is achieved through production subsidies, fewer regulations, and tax cuts.

Their opponents (demand-siders?) hope to increase access to goods by increasing the purchasing power of consumers. Policies like social safety nets, public education, and tax increases on the investor class promote this goal.

Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by SilasX on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:14PM (#20003976)
If they don't know high(-enough)-RoR uses of the money, then paying it out as a dividend is exactly what they should do as good stewards of the investors' capital.

And share buybacks are just a tax-efficient version of dividends (since they don't trigger a taxable event for the investors that don't want to convert shares to cash yet).

Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by rat_1234 on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:30PM (#20004099)
Agreed!

It's easy to say 'you should be investing that capital into projects.'

But I think people don't realize how much money is actually generated by some of these companies.

I know AAPL is the strongest possible case for my argument, but bear with me.

Their operating cash flow net of CAPEX is ~$65B as of their 2018 year ending in September. I.e., after paying for all of the investments they want to make, they still have $65B in straight up cash left over.

I mean -- what are you supposed to do with all of that?

Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by pishpash on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:05PM (#20004393)
There's no problem with returning capital to shareholders. There is a problem when shareholders just plow it back into index funds. Does Apple have a better use of money than shareholders? Well, there are investments available to Apple that aren't even available to shareholders, so on the face of it, how could they not?

Therefore the issue isn't so much Apple not being able to find better opportunities than shareholders, but that it can't find better opportunities than Apple -- making those actually good investments would look bad for Apple because of how absurdly profitable it is. That's not a good reason to return capital, if you think about it carefully.

Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by __blockcipher__ on Friday May 24, 2019 @01:48PM (#20003766)
Stock buybacks aren’t artificial boosting. It’s the correct move when your company is undervalued and you don’t have better investment options.

See Apple for an example of doing it right.

See Chipotle for an example of doing it wrong.

Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by challenger22 on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:00PM (#20003865)
It's also a more tax efficient way of distributing returns to shareholders than dividends. GP does not know what he's talking about.
Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by MarkyC4 on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:22PM (#20004032)
Non-American with no position in Chipotle here. Could you elaborate a bit on how they did their buyback wrong? I see their stock have climbed in the past year, so wasn't the buyback worth it?
Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by sonnyblarney on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:09PM (#20003940)
"Companies that are swimming in cash reserves are using their money to artificially boost "

There is nothing artificial about it

CFO's are reacting rationally to the credit situation that they do not control.

Consider that labour markets are tight, and 'productive investments' are not easy to make. They are generally very risky.

Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by kortilla on Friday May 24, 2019 @01:47PM (#20003757)
You think returning money to investors is a sign the economy is broken?

IMO it’s a sign companies are doing the intelligent thing and are assuming investors are better investors than throwing money at random shit.

Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by kovacs on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:58PM (#20004334)
Asking that question seems to imply that you didn't really see the commenter's reasons for asserting that...

"instead of actually investing in things like capital expenditures, R&D, or higher salaries"

Specifically the last one. The pay gap is larger than ever. The efficiency gains over the last 20 years or more are systematically being funneled up the food chain to executives and shareholders. Even in tech there's a ton of wage stagnation compared to the real cost of living over this period.

I think this is the crux of the assertion if I'm not mistaken. It's broken that the share of increased prosperity isn't anywhere near equally distributed. I wouldn't call that throwing money at random shit.

Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by povertyworld on Friday May 24, 2019 @01:58PM (#20003854)
Right. Wouldn't it be great if Google would start paying a dividend instead of throwing away money on goofy acquisitions like Boston Dynamics? How the hell is a robot dog that does flips or whatever supposed to improve their advertising business exactly? Give me a break.
Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by ForHackernews on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:00PM (#20003875)
...it was supposed to get them into the highly lucrative world of military contracting. But then it caused too much of a PR stink, so they had to back off from that idea.
Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by sonnyblarney on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:10PM (#20003946)
" How the hell is a robot dog that does flips or whatever supposed to improve their advertising business exactly?"

Because a robot that does flips can also flip burgers, pick inventory, sneak up on people (i.e. military) and ultimately that stuff will be worth a lot.

One of their lesser goofy investments.

Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by povertyworld on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:37PM (#20004156)
Yeah, it was so less goofy they had to unload it on Softbank, the goofy investment kings.
Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by sonnyblarney on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:45PM (#20004209)
Softbank is not making goofy investments (hover skatebaords), they are making ROI investments (real estate leasing).

Google dumped the robots for strategic reasons, moreover, it's going to be a while before payoff.

Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by povertyworld on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:01PM (#20004360)
Softbank going all in on ARM at this late stage of the game seemed a little on the goofy side. I didn't know they were into real estate. Isn't it kind of a bad idea to buy real estate, but not be structured like a REIT since you'd lose tax advantages? Then again, I don't know how it works in Japan. I just know I've been suspicious of Softbank ever since they put a ton of money into Yahoo, and I haven't seen any evidence countering this admitted bias.
Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by sonnyblarney on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:14PM (#20004485)
Softbank is not making 'goofy' investments along the lines of Google's 'loon' projects, like putting Wifi in air balloons.

They are making 'real' investments in late stage companies with actual business models, or things that have obvious potential upsides.

Softbank is basically where companies go for D and E rounds instead of going public. So there is some risk, but way less risk than left-field, early stage investments.

Their 'real estate' investment is in WeWork, which probably will make them a lot of money as long as interest rates don't flinch higher, and as long as there is no real-estate crash.

Sprint, ARM, Yahoo, Uber, Slack - these are not 'crazy' investments, especially depending on price. Yahoo might actually have some 'decent fundamentals' on some level, and be worth something at some price. They have a gigantic audience, and some small changes might make them be profitable at some level, and they could very well be worth something, at some price.

It's a cross between classic private equity and late stage venture capital, all of their investments make sense in that context.

Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by JohnJamesRambo on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:28PM (#20004084)
The unceasing robot dog terminator hunts you down, pins you, and shows you ads on its visor/eyes.
Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by MrRadar on Friday May 24, 2019 @04:25PM (#20004963)
This comment reminds me of one of my favorite pieces of Internet fiction titled Attention Deficit Disorder[1]. The original context was a thread where the OP was arguing for a literal "attention economy" and the story is meant to extrapolate their arguments into absurdity.

[1]: https://pastebin.com/KCbP6rbr

Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by JohnJamesRambo on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @11:37AM (#20031184)
Lol this is terrifying.
Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by povertyworld on Friday May 24, 2019 @01:55PM (#20003835)
If a company is swimming in cash, shouldn't that be going to investors in the form of dividends? This ideology of hoarding cash pushed by guys like Buffet is a sign of a warped economy.
Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by rhino369 on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:11PM (#20003950)
Buybacks are equivalent to dividends, but with less taxation.
Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by povertyworld on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:40PM (#20004174)
I don't have a problem with buybacks either. There was a time when Buffet argued to people that holding cash was worth some multiple greater than returning the cash, and he was probably right. I'm just saying that is more indicative of a "warped economy" than a business actually returning money.
Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by User23 on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:26PM (#20004060)
Giving money back to shareholders sounds a lot like giving money to venture capitalists to me.
Re:Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Ear... by AnimalMuppet on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:47PM (#20004720)
Could you explain? They sound almost totally different to me, with "giving money" being the only point in common.