News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by jacquesm on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @04:34PM (#19974645)
Churches are - pun intended - a mixed blessing. Religion gives comfort when people are in pain and can help impose some sense where there is none so on the short timescales it looks positive. But on the longer timescales it is just another powerstructure that aims to keep people in check and productive towards the aim of maintaining the structure itself and at tremendous cost to society as a whole and in many cases at tremendous cost to the lives of the individuals that are a part of it.

Personally I prefer to live without such influences in my life in so far as that is possible but I fully respect others' rights to do as they please.

But a healthy society can be had outside of religion.

Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by roenxi on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @05:22PM (#19975201)
> just another powerstructure

I don't like power structures but some are necessary. Take the police for example, a world where the police are not needed would be a better world. Police are a nasty coercive force. And yet they are completely essential.

Religion is interesting because it is obviously not essential in the way that a police force is. However, it isn't yet obvious that it can be done without - a religion's adherents are often people who want some sort of power structure telling them what they should do to be a good person. What it means to be a good person isn't obvious, and in practice is very complex. Sometimes a good person needs to do horrible things - we should be terrified of taking that sort of decision on personally. Sometimes bad people want to do good and would appreciate being told how.

* Political structures aren't strong enough to organise society on their own. They only communicate the beliefs of the current ruling class.

* We can do without a lot of religious dogma, which is clearly wrong (eg, anything talking about purging heretics). We need some sort of shared story for what is going on that looks a lot like a religion.

Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by ip26 on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @05:40PM (#19975359)
I like to think of it in terms of power vacuums. A power vacuum will be filled. Do we chose to fill it with thoughtful intent, or do we allow it to fill itself with whomever or whatever it pleases?

One of my favorite pieces:

https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm

Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by jacquesm on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @05:24PM (#19975221)
> However, it isn't yet obvious that it can be done without - a religion's adherents are often people who want some sort of power structure telling them what they should do to be a good person.

There are countries where the majority is not religious and they function just fine.

Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by Apocryphon on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @05:28PM (#19975260)
Are they? Much of Europe and Japan have fallen into economic doldrums with declining birth rates, and fallen prey to advancing right-wing populist movements. But then Poland is quite religious and far rightists are taking root there as well, so maybe religion isn’t the sticking factor.
Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by sjy on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @06:38PM (#19975850)
It's also notable that those countries don't have noticeably worse standards of living than countries with a state religion or less religious freedom, and Europe attracts many migrants from such countries.
Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by jacquesm on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @05:33PM (#19975290)
> But then Poland is quite religious

And the United States as well.

Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by jamestimmins on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @05:22PM (#19975198)
Certainly a valid opinion to have, I just want to provide the counter opinion that for many folks, myself included, this is not the case. I have been part of both large and very small churches, and have personally found it to be an enormous blessing.

Churches are full of fallible people to be sure, but in most of them, these fallible people are encouraging one another to live out what they profess to believe.

Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by md224 on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @05:25PM (#19975226)
It seems to me like the point of churches (or any spiritual organization) is to make it easy to find a local community of people who share one's ethical values and metaphysical beliefs. Of course, someone could always just make a post on a message board:

"Hey, my name's Bill, I live with my wife and two kids over by Grand & Manchester, near the post office... I'm looking to start a local club for people that believe human beings are more than just biological automata and that all souls will ultimately be reconciled to God at the end of time. I go to a lot of local meetups connected to my hobbies, but every time I bring up the Universal Reconciliation thing people start to get uncomfortable or bored, so I was hoping to find some people I could talk about this with..."

But then you've basically started a church, so...

Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by dustingetz on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @06:02PM (#19975572)
One might historically consider church to be a check on the power of the state
Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by ip26 on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @04:54PM (#19974892)
Have there ever been democratic or republic churches?
Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by QuercusMax on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @05:03PM (#19975011)
The Society of Friends (AKA Quakers) doesn't have professional clergy, and decisions are made democratically. They don't even have pastors; my parents were married in a Quaker meeting house, and their marriage license was signed by the secretary of the congregation.

Here's an article about their decision-making process: http://quaker.org/legacy/tqe/2005/TQE118-EN-Democracy.html

Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by Apocryphon on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @04:55PM (#19974911)
Most Protestant churches are run democratically with voting on elders and so forth
Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by lukev on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @05:04PM (#19975031)
It isn't clear that this leads to "better" outcomes, though. The larger denominations are pretty standardized, the smaller churches with more independence are where you find more sectarianism, extremism, and even cult-like behavior.
Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by jacquesm on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @05:01PM (#19974997)
That's a good point. When it comes to 'how to run a church' it is a pretty good basis, unfortunately protestantism is very fragmented, but then again, if it wasn't then it would be more like the structure it broke away from so maybe that is actually a good thing.
Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by CharlesColeman on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @03:37PM (#19984682)
> Have there ever been democratic or republic churches?

Yes, to the point where there's vocabulary to describe those types of organization, e.g.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_polity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregationalist_polity

Re:A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, researc... by larkeith on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @05:23PM (#19975204)
I can't speak to democratic/republic, but a number of syncretic religions and alternative spiritualities are either decentralized or so fragmented as to be functionally so. In my experience, such provide several of the social benefits of religion - i.e. gatherings of like-minded people with shared theologies - with reduced potential for abuse of power.

Of course, the scalability of these systems are unknown.