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Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by larrywright on Sunday May 12, 2019 @07:51PM (#19895391)
Free college is an awful idea, honestly. That's not going to fix the problem, and will most likely make it significanly worse.
Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by semajian on Sunday May 12, 2019 @08:15PM (#19895489)
I guess the most prominent counterexample is Germany, which has basically free tuition. They also have different kinds of high schools preparing people for universities or trades, not everyone needs to go to university.
Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by larrywright on Sunday May 12, 2019 @08:23PM (#19895533)
I know that it's worked elsewhere, but that doesn't mean it will work here (without some cultural changes). I'm not saying college shouldn't be free - maybe it should - but I'm saying that the problems we have today with underemployment aren't going to be fixed by free tuition.

We first have to undo decades of treating trades as a lesser class of work, and telling everyone they have to go to college and "follow their passion".

Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by willio58 on Sunday May 12, 2019 @11:43PM (#19896296)
Aren’t employment rates in the U.S. doing pretty well at this point? I think the companies struggling to find people are skilled labor—the likes of which require 4 year degrees for a lot of their positions.
Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by larrywright on Monday May 13, 2019 @08:23PM (#19905512)
Employment is low, yes. But a lot of people are underemployed - working retail or Starbucks or something, in spite of having a college degree. We don’t have a labor shortage or a job shortage - there are plenty of both. What we have is a mismatch between the skills that people who want jobs have to offer, and the skills that employers require.
Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by emmelaich on Sunday May 12, 2019 @08:31PM (#19895567)
If all good education was free there would be no private Universities in Germany. But there are many and they all charge fees.

Also, _not_ all public universities are free.

Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by petschge on Sunday May 12, 2019 @09:18PM (#19895747)
Typically you pay $200 per semester in enrollment fees (bus ticket to the city included). And while private universities in Germany exists they are absolutely tiny compared to the public ones.
Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by anon1m0us on Sunday May 12, 2019 @09:09PM (#19895709)
I think it's a great idea. It's always wise to invest in education. The student loans ARE an investment.

The only real problem with the student loans is that they gave them to people without concrete earning potential. They should have only gave out loans to educate people at real institutions (not U. of Phoenix eg) in practical areas like engineering or science. Instead, they gave a lot of loans to people who wouldn't have good employable potential post graduation.

Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by rayiner on Sunday May 12, 2019 @09:23PM (#19895772)
> It's always wise to invest in education.

That’s debatable. Regardless, college involves some education, for some. There is also a lot of partying, drug use, indoctrination, and impractical pursuits. I don’t want to fund that with public dollars, especially since our college graduation rights are already on the higher side relative to our competitor countries. If we were talking about spending public dollars on commuter trade schools, I’d feel more positively.

Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by larrywright on Sunday May 12, 2019 @09:14PM (#19895735)
That's exactly what I'm saying. Free college doesn't solve the problem, because the real problem isn't the cost of college, it's people pursuing degrees that aren't useful in the real world.
Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by anon1m0us on Sunday May 12, 2019 @09:20PM (#19895755)
Ah, I see. So we should have free practical education. Free engineering universities and such, but not free ... let's call them, humanities universities?

I'd be ok with that. If you want a humanities degree, then you have to pay. Maybe those still have student loans, but not big ones.

Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by rayiner on Sunday May 12, 2019 @09:30PM (#19895802)
But we won’t get that. American culture and politics won’t permit it. (I can see the New Yorker articles now.) Not only that, we won’t even get the quota systems for different majors various European countries have. It’ll be underwater basket weaving for everyone, at the public expense.
Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by anon1m0us on Sunday May 12, 2019 @09:35PM (#19895820)
Perhaps I'm an idealist, but I think we can do it right. We had two tracks in high school. the ones who could go to college stayed in class all day. The others who were slated for blue collar jobs went to trade school for the first half of the day, then took essential classes in the afternoon.
Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by rayiner on Sunday May 12, 2019 @09:56PM (#19895900)
> Perhaps I'm an idealist, but I think we can do it right.

Our politics would never allow dual tracking. (There are many things that Europe does fine, such as public education, and transit, that Europe does just fine, but which we can’t do as well because of cultural differences.)

Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by anon1m0us on Sunday May 12, 2019 @10:37PM (#19896057)
We have dual tracks now. We are allowing it. You mean at a national level?
Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by p1necone on Monday May 13, 2019 @12:56AM (#19896520)
What are these "good" degrees, and what are the "bad" degrees? Have you actually looked at data or are you just going off gut feeling here?
Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by larrywright on Monday May 13, 2019 @04:25PM (#19903566)
It's gut feel, but I've heard a lot of similar stories from people I know.

Good degrees: medical (nursing, nutrition, etc), computer science, most engineering degrees, math.

Bad degrees: most of the liberal arts degrees. English, theatre, journalism etc.

These are broad generalizations, obviously. There are people with "bad" degrees who make a good living. There are people with "good" degrees who are struggling. But when I see people complaining that they have huge amounts of debt and are unemployed or underemployed, it's almost universally people who have the degrees I labeled bad.

Some of the issue seems to be just a general lack of planning - they decide to pursue a degree in X, but don't really have a plan for what kind of job they want. Some of the issue seems to be a stubbornness to accept that maybe the thing they got a degree in (often their "passion" - a concept that needs to die) may not be the thing they build a career on. Someone who got a degree in theatre because they really loved being in plays in high school, for example (an actual example I saw recently in a Humans of New York post). They probably need to accept that theatre is a hobby (at least for them), and pursue a career in something else.

An actual example from someone I know who went through this process with her daughter: The daughter had decided she wanted to go to an out of state school and major in journalism, and then move to some specific city to work when she was done with school. Her mother sat her down and they ran the numbers on what the school would cost vs what her parents could help her with financially, what the average person with a journalism degree makes out of college, and what the cost of living was in the city she wanted to live in was. The numbers didn't add up. The college was expensive and would have left her with lots of debt, the journalism degree didn't leave her with very many choices in terms of careers, and the cost of living in the city she wanted to live in was pretty high. So, they talked it through and the daughter ended up doing two years of community college (much cheaper) before going to a less expensive in-state school, she got a degree in english (yes, I labeled it a bad degree - it's probably not in this case), and opted to live in a cheaper city once she'd graduated (she's still in college). This is the activity that's missing from most college-bound kids lives.

Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by AngryData on Sunday May 12, 2019 @08:11PM (#19895466)
Why? It works for high school, I don't see how college is any different.
Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by larrywright on Sunday May 12, 2019 @08:20PM (#19895513)
High school is a guided path, there are choices to be made but everyone comes out of it with a similar set of skills and knowledge. College is self-guided and people can choose the degree they want to pursue.

The problem today is that there are a lot of people who pursue degrees with little regard for the cost and the applicability of the degree they're pursuing. If they do that now, when they have some skin in the game, how will that improve if college is "free". I think you'll see more people getting degrees in fields that have no job market. Sure, they don't have debt (the rest of us will foot the bill), but they have no job prospects either.

The people I see on Facebook and other social media complaining about the cost of college and the job prospects they have all have one thing in common: they bought into the "pursue your passion" lie and came out of college with a degree that they can't use.

Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by jogjayr on Monday May 13, 2019 @02:21AM (#19896767)
> Sure, they don't have debt (the rest of us will foot the bill),

If taxpayers only agree to foot a much smaller bill, universities will be forced to cut all the frivolous stuff and get serious about education. I'm all for taxpayer-funded college but not at the prices these colleges charge at present. You don't see college football and all the other non-educational nonsense in Germany (using that because it's an example of a country with a free college system). "Free" college should pay only for classrooms and labs, professors and TAs - no dorms, meal plans, overpriced textbooks, sports or extra-curricular activities (unless paid for by students or donors), huge admin staff and the rest.

Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by larrywright on Monday May 13, 2019 @04:07PM (#19903396)
I agree with this, but getting colleges to get rid of their athletic programs is unlikely to happen.

I saw something at one point that said that colleges now are luxurious compared to the colleges of 30/40/50 years ago. The implication there was that once students had easy access to student loans, state schools in particular no longer focused on being cost effective. Anecdotally, I live in a town with a state school (Illinois State), and the apartments that have sprung up on campus over the past 10-15 years are insane compared to what I saw in college. Flat screen TVs in every unit, pools, etc. This is probably the most extreme example, but there are many similar: https://thelodgeonwillow.com

Re:U.S. Stepping Up Enforcement on Delinquent Student Loans by emmelaich on Sunday May 12, 2019 @08:18PM (#19895504)
Pass rate for college level for random person is vastly lower than high school.