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Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by davidwihl on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:34PM (#19888234)
I live across the street from the Shed (and Hudson Yards).

1) Since opening, the mall has added a ton of indoor seating. The place is so popular that sometimes people still sit on the floor. This is success not sour grapes.

2) The escalators seem purposefully designed to make you wander around the mall. If you want vertical speed, there are many elevators, which the author neglected to mention.

The place is very popular. I’m certainly happy to have world class dining, shops and arts instead of a rail yard.

The article is basically a hatchet job.

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by txcwpalpha on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:10PM (#19888408)
The entire article reads as someone specifically searching for something to criticize, and some of these are a real stretch. The sloppy cladding and bricks is surely not ideal, but is it really a big deal at all? It's hardly noticeable unless you are specifically looking for things to nitpick. The "damaged wheel" picture in particular is literally just paint chipping on a piece of machinery that hardly anyone will actually see. Who cares?

As for the design criticisms, it's clear this person doesn't know much about actual design principles, despite criticizing the designers for it.

1) The escalators are almost certainly purposefully designed like this. This is common in many places, and I especially have seen this design used in many malls. Along with the fact that it guides people to product display areas, it also prevents dangerous traffic jams on the landings between escalators (it takes longer to get on an escalator than it does to get off, so in high traffic situations, you can end up with a lot of bunching at the top of an escalator, which can mean dangerous situations like this [1]).

2) Stairs are a common bottleneck since it takes longer to go up/down stairs than it does to walk on a level walkway. To prevent bottlenecking, the stairs should be wider than the walkways they connect to. This is the same principle you see when tollbooth plazas have more lanes than the highways they connect to.

3) The complaint about the gap in the railings again seems like an incredible nitpick. The author claims it is a 6 inch gap, but based on the photo, unless this person has massive hands, it looks more like a 3-4 inch gap, and I think it's a real stretch to call that "dangerous".

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVqg6sjJK-M

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by pranjalv123 on Saturday May 11, 2019 @06:50PM (#19888866)
If there are problems like this with the finish work, it's likely that there are problems with the stuff you can't see as well. Just like a slow, buggy piece of software is more likely to have security issues than one that runs smoothly and presents a good user experience.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by CydeWeys on Saturday May 11, 2019 @10:15PM (#19889696)
People in the construction industry in the /r/nyc subreddit are saying that finish issues are common when a building first opens, and that overall quality should be judged a year out from opening, when everything has been addressed. The logic goes that there are lots of custom-fab components required in any sizable construction, some of which will inevitably be damaged during transit or install. It may take months to replace them, and you don't want to hold up the entire opening for months for some insignificant fit & finish issues because you'd be losing huge amounts of money.

So you get the place to the point where it opens, and then you do a trickle of night work over the coming months as replacement parts come in and you can finally get everything perfect.

Hell, this happened to my parents' house remodel recently. They scratched a custom-order door in a way that wasn't repairable. Rather than leaving my parents without a door for a month, they left it as-is and then came back a month later with a new door (once it was ready) and installed it.

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by antonvs on Sunday May 12, 2019 @06:13AM (#19891076)
That really doesn't follow. A building with a beautiful, perfect finish can be shoddy inside, and vice versa.

The software analogy doesn't hold, because security issues are often a consequence of buggy software, whereas shoddy finishes don't have much casual connection to the interior structure.

Also, software that "runs smoothly and presents a good used experience" can be just as prone to security problems, again because there's no necessary casual connection between the two.

You could argue that if the same team is responsible for everything, that the user experience, or finish, may be indicative of the internals - but it's common in both software and construction for different teams and even different companies to be responsible, and there can also be reasons to prioritize the areas differently and devote more attention and resources to one than the other.

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by gatherhunterer on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:57PM (#19888624)
> it's clear this person doesn't know much about actual design principles, despite criticizing the designers for it

I don't know how you came that conclusion, it seems irrationally combative. He is in good company.

> Klaus Jacob, a professor at Columbia University, has stated approval of the project stems from the "shortsightedness of decision-making" by its developers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_Yards_(development)#Arc...

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by txcwpalpha on Saturday May 11, 2019 @06:00PM (#19888646)
Jacob's criticisms of the design stem in broader architectural designs of the structures and how the overall development fits into the surrounding neighborhood. The author of the OP is talking about specific nitpicks of things like escalators and railings. They are not at all in the same company.

If the author wants to talk about how the glass buildings and their shape don't fit into the neighborhood, or that they lack a certain aesthetic, then fine. But he's not doing that. He is arguing against functional design principles that are not only commonplace across many similar developments, they are also in place for a reason.

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by gatherhunterer on Saturday May 11, 2019 @06:03PM (#19888661)
Klaus Jacob's full comment pertains to the inability of the development to sustain changes from climate change, his criticism is not at all aesthetic but functional. He is a geophysicist.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by txcwpalpha on Saturday May 11, 2019 @06:05PM (#19888670)
These are, again, not at all in the same ballpark as the criticisms in the OP article. It is apples and oranges.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by bitCromwell on Monday May 13, 2019 @08:10PM (#19905423)
author seems astonished at the escalator placement that has been standard practice for over a decade.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by Camillo on Saturday May 11, 2019 @11:05PM (#19889860)
> To prevent bottlenecking, the stairs should be wider than the walkways they connect to.

That walkway does look ridiculously narrow, though. Seems to be just one person wide.

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by njepa on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:51PM (#19888591)
The standard for luxury malls in the Middle East and Asia can be pretty high, so if it is some sort of international play it matters for sure.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by txcwpalpha on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:58PM (#19888635)
I have been to many 'luxury' malls in places in Tokyo, Singapore, and Hong Kong, and they suffer from the same small insignificant 'flaws' just like the ones mentioned in this article. In fact, many of the luxury developments in Asia and the Middle East (Singapore, Qatar, and the UAE especially) are notorious for cutting corners by using underskilled, underpaid labor to build these luxury developments, causing cut sloppy work. I would say the standards are only 'pretty high' if you only look skin deep.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by njepa on Saturday May 11, 2019 @08:29PM (#19889318)
There is of course plenty of random luxury developments in those places, but high end malls tend to be pretty good. At least in the elaborate-sloppy ratio, as different developments will be competing for the high end brands. But looking more at Hudson Yards it looks more like a random mall, in which case it probably doesn't matter much.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by throwvatars on Saturday May 11, 2019 @07:15PM (#19888978)
Going by your judgement, Boeing too had underskilled and underpaid labor ? Because they too cut corners.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by txcwpalpha on Saturday May 11, 2019 @07:28PM (#19889046)
I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. I said that certain malls that are known to use underpaid and underskilled laborers suffer from cut corners. That does not mean that all cut corners are a result of underpaid and underskilled labor.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by leereeves on Saturday May 11, 2019 @07:47PM (#19889123)
> it takes longer to get on an escalator than it does to get off

How so? Everyone who gets off the escalator had to get on at the same pace earlier.

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by txcwpalpha on Saturday May 11, 2019 @08:06PM (#19889209)
If everyone who got on the escalator stayed in their position on the escalator until they got off, this would mitigate bunching at the top. But practically, when people get on the escalator, many people walk (while other people just stand) which can throw off the rate that people arrive at the end of the escalator. If two people get on an escalator 3 seconds apart, but then one of them moves forward on the escalator so that they are both on the same step, then they would exit the escalator at the same time rather than 3 seconds apart.

Additionally, the people getting on the upwards escalator, at, for example, Floor 1 aren't the only people that will be getting on the upwards escalator on Floor 2. There will be other people from Floor 2 that want to go upwards as well.

The design should also account for unusual situations as well. Just because someone got on the first escalator with no problem doesn't mean they won't accidentally trip or fall when trying to get on the second escalator. And if that happens, you don't want people getting hurt just because a sudden traffic jam caused a huge bunch of people on the landing between the escalators.

I was curious so I did some additional reading. Based on promo material from escalator manufacturers [1], there is mention of safety issues regarding the amount of space on escalator landings, but there is also a lot of talk about optimizing traffic flow through product display areas. My guess is that the mall's decision to place the escalators the way they did is primarily driven by that, but as someone who used to work in a building where the exit to one escalator was directly next to the entrance to the next escalator, and personally witnessed huge traffic jams (and had the awful experience of being uncontrollably pushed towards such a jam by an escalator), I do appreciate the design for safety reasons as well.

1 (PDF WARNING): https://www.schindler.com/content/in/internet/en/mobility-so...

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by gatherhunterer on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:04PM (#19888388)
I also live in NY and the opinion expressed in the article is a common one. The NYT tore it apart in an article (with particularly well-executed visual effects)[1].

The fact that a lot of people visit it is just a factor of Manhattan being an ever-expanding series of tourist traps. Along with the 9/11 Memorial Shopping Mall the island is looking more and more like Mall of America. Madame Tussaud's is popular, yet it is generally reviled among residents and frequent visitors along with the knock-off Broadway characters at Times Square that will kick your teeth in if you take a selfie with them without paying (yet they remain a popular attraction). New Yorkers will tolerate crappiness if it is at least convenient and will tolerate opulence if it is at least nice to look at. Hudson Yards is neither.

If you have a dire case of FOMO then it might seem like a nice addition but it's just a shinier version of the malls that you see at every highway exit in the country. The city's venerable institutions have not changed and still quietly offer arts and music and there was certainly no shortage of world-class dining before Hudson Yards went up. Unless you've been pining for Thomas Keller's latest take on a thousand-dollar bowl of bong water[2], who needs it?

1. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/03/14/arts/design/h...

2. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/13/dining/pete-wells-per-se-...

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by sonnyblarney on Saturday May 11, 2019 @06:36PM (#19888795)
"the 9/11 Memorial Shopping Mall"

I think those words should not be ever strung together, and as they are it kinds of says way too many things about a culture that would use them as such.

Not to condemn all of New York, but the implications of that sentence is way beyond kitsch.

Maybe this is the way NY has always been: it changes, it hustles, it moves. It's never been about a quaint kind of perfection. Maybe it's always been a kind of a rugged, slightly aggressive New World place that maybe should offend the senses of anyone expecting a more refined serenity?

So maybe that's just NYC.

I'm sure a guy like Trump and his tastes is not some random outlier ...

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by jdavis703 on Saturday May 11, 2019 @07:08PM (#19888949)
> "the 9/11 Memorial Shopping Mall"

I was disgusted the last time I went there. I was there with someone who lost a family member in 9/11. They were clearly still emotionally burdened by their loss, even in 2017. Yet just a few feet away people were taking smiling selfies next to a literal memorial! I've been to many public memorials, and they are somber places. The 9/11 memorial feels like an almost fitting monument to crass 21st century capitalism.

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by mikeash on Saturday May 11, 2019 @08:01PM (#19889182)
Lots of memorials in DC are on the Mall. Maybe they just misunderstood here....
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by sonnyblarney on Sunday May 12, 2019 @12:55AM (#19890227)
Mall (classical), not 'Shopping Mall'.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by ghaff on Sunday May 12, 2019 @08:28AM (#19891485)
I assume they were referring to the Oculus which is a high-end shopping mall building in the rebuilt WTC complex.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by kevin_thibedeau on Saturday May 11, 2019 @09:50PM (#19889591)
I've seen people taking selfies there with an insta approved smile. Word from a local university professor is that many of the current young adults who grew up in NYC don't even know what 9/11 is.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by antonvs on Sunday May 12, 2019 @06:19AM (#19891089)
> but it's just a shinier version of the malls that you see at every highway exit in the country.

So what's the problem with that? If you look to malls as a source of transcendence, you're bound to be disappointed.

> who needs it?

If nobody needed it, it would be a ghost town. Your objection is not that it's not needed, it's that you don't like it.

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by btown on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:12PM (#19888415)
In isolation it my be great that this is better than a rail yard, but it's important to note that Hudson Yards was financed in part by a diversion of a year's worth of funding from low-income housing elsewhere in New York: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/04/hudson-yards-financin... ... and in that context, it's notable that it's not a set of constructions that's built to last.

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19644880

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by bradleyjg on Saturday May 11, 2019 @07:18PM (#19888998)
The EB-5 visa isn’t an affordable housing program and NY state doesn’t have a fixed allotment from it.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by Ericson2314 on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:54PM (#19888605)
Yeah OP has to develop an LVT mindset. It's not "is the development good" or "is the development better than what was there before", but "is this the best use of the space".

The real good design is the rail yard person who left space for pilings to put something above in the 70s. (Some NYT article led with this fact.)

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by leereeves on Saturday May 11, 2019 @07:46PM (#19889118)
I can't find anything in that article about "diversion of a year's worth of funding from low-income housing elsewhere in New York".

Though it certainly discusses some questionable gerrymandering of the targeted economic area.

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by btown on Saturday May 11, 2019 @09:09PM (#19889454)
> All in all, Related solicited investments from some 3,200 foreign visa-seekers. This figure is significant, since the number of new visas that the U.S. issues each year under EB-5 has a hard cap of 10,000. Given that each eligible investor may claim visas for immediate family members—and since these family visas (an average of three) also count toward the overall cap—the Hudson Yards development may have easily claimed an entire year’s worth of visas issued under EB-5.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by DuskStar on Sunday May 12, 2019 @12:32AM (#19890169)
And why on earth would those EB-5 visa holders have invested in low-income housing? Nothing in the visa requirements description seems to mention 'low-income', 'distressed', 'economically disadvantaged' or anything of the sort. [0] Here:

> All EB-5 investors must invest in a new commercial enterprise, which is a commercial enterprise:

> Established after Nov. 29, 1990, or

> Established on or before Nov. 29, 1990, that is:

> 1. Purchased and the existing business is restructured or reorganized in such a way that a new commercial enterprise results, or

> 2. Expanded through the investment so that at least a 40-percent increase in the net worth or number of employees occurs

The closest thing is how it specifies amounts - $1m in general, or $500,000 in rural or high unemployment areas. Which is closer, but still doesn't require low-income housing...

0: https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/permanent-worker...

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by asveikau on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:50PM (#19888318)
I think the questions of building quality are a bit broader than just this project. It causes me to ponder how ambitious new construction projects always end up very expensive and showing issues. It feels like the US has lost its knack for big ambitious construction that it had in the 20th century.

This seems independent of whether or not it's a popular attraction.

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by tormeh on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:17PM (#19888436)
Having read a lot, and listened to podcasts, about BER, the takeaway seems to be that quality control is of utmost importance. The amount of money you spend on quality control almost can't be high enough. 30% or more of the budget just for quality control now seems entirely reasonable to me. And it can't be just at the end, it has to be an ongoing thing where everything is sanity checked as it is being done by people who preferably know their shit better than the people actually doing the work. Starting with the fundamental assumptions of the architectural drawings and ending with the carpets. Because we see the alternative and it's just depressing how far over budget things can go.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by jseliger on Saturday May 11, 2019 @06:13PM (#19888704)
The article is basically a hatchet job.

I have a theory that writers in the media are disposed towards complaining, or rewarded for it with readers. It's also easier and frequently more fun to be negative than positive. So on almost any topic (Facebook, Hudson Yards, Tesla, whatever) there's a tendency to needlessly accentuate the negative.

Meanwhile, the writer has no idea what he (or she?) would've done with Hudson Yards, given the same opportunity and budget. Neither do I, for that matter.

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by megaremote on Saturday May 11, 2019 @07:17PM (#19888993)
Good. That is they way they should be. Maybe you would prefer if they were all optimists just talking everything up, ignoring issues? No, I prefer them to point out issues.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by winningcontinue on Sunday May 12, 2019 @03:20AM (#19890631)
I'd expand that negativity not only to the media writers but societal culture in general. We live in a culture of snark where anything done is torn down and picked apart. These critics have never built anything, accomplished anything themselves. I suppose though, this is better than the alternative of people slurping and ingratiating themselves to everything.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by subpixel on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:46PM (#19888303)
People sit on the floor b/c of a lack of seating which is by conscious design so as to inhibit people lounging around.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by walterbell on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:21PM (#19888456)
Since lack of seating is forcing people to sit on the floor, they can try some other anti-seating technologies that have been deployed in London and New York.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by dTal on Sunday May 12, 2019 @08:16AM (#19891437)
In other words, hostile design. If you're not doing a New York hustle walk on your way to or from spending money, you're not welcome. No sitting down to chat, not even if you've bought food. Because the unforgivable sin in a capitalist culture is engaging with your fellow humans for free, instead of paying money to engage with goods and services.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by Camillo on Saturday May 11, 2019 @10:59PM (#19889840)
The article is accompanied by several pictures, and what they show is shoddy build quality for what is supposed to be a luxury development. Would you accept that level of quality if you were having your own house built?

Given that what they're saying is the plain, visible truth, what's the objection?

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by rayiner on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:00PM (#19888365)
> The article is basically a hatchet job.

Also labor propaganda.

Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by theoh on Saturday May 11, 2019 @07:18PM (#19889002)
Come on, as if "retail" was intrinsically a good thing. High-end shopping destinations are not part of the solution to the capitalism/consumerism situation we are in, and, most importantly, they don't even cater to the majority.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by harryh on Sunday May 12, 2019 @06:43AM (#19891166)
There's a Cartier and a Dior there, but there's also an H&M and a Uniqulo. There is plenty there to cater to the majority.
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by rayiner on Saturday May 11, 2019 @07:42PM (#19889098)
Whether or not we need more retail, the article offers no basis for its conjecture that the quality defects are due to use of non-union labor. (And given the raging tire fire that is the MTA, there is ample reason to believe the opposite.)
Re:A city for the rich, built poorly: The construction of Hu... by theoh on Saturday May 11, 2019 @08:08PM (#19889225)
It's almost routine for high-end architects to produce substandard buildings. Zaha Hadid's work in Guangzhou is a good example. It's not necessarily the fault of the contractors, particularly with complex buildings, but the general message is that you get what you pay for.

Unions can be dysfunctional, resisting new tech, but construction is a pretty simple business.