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Re:A small town, a chemical plant and the residents' despera... by rayiner on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @08:44AM (#19848843)
Ignoring the racial dimension would be inaccurate, for two reasons. First, the fact is that the median income for black household is on the border of the bottom third for white households. So all the things that happen to poor households generally, like pollution, happen more intensively to black households.

Second, black neighborhoods are discounted in the public eye even in comparison to their income levels. I grew up in “progressive” northern Virginia, hearing about how PG County (a suburb of DC) was “ghetto.” Two decades later, when I moved next door, I was quite surprised to learn that PG County is just a middle class predominantly black county. One of the richest predominate black counties in the country, and richer than most counties in Virginia that nobody considers “the ghetto.” Those attitudes almost certainly impact peoples’ views about what places are desirable/undesirable/need renewal/etc.

Those two phenomena also intersect. Places are worth less because black people live there. Take the DC suburbs, for example. To the west and southwest of DC, you have the Virginia suburbs of Fairfax County, Alexandria, and Arlington. To the north, east, and southeast, you have the Maryland suburbs of Montgomery County and PG County. PG County is better served by Metro, both in number of lines and number of stations, than any other suburban county (and that's been true for 30+ years). In DC, property near a Metro station has appreciated incredibly over the past 25 years. Where has most of that growth happened? On the Virginia side, where there are white people and predominantly white schools. Even today, people are fighting through northern Virginia traffic from places like Reston to get to a Metro station that then takes 30 minutes to get to the city center. Meanwhile, they could get a house in a solidly middle class PG County neighborhood with a shorter trip downtown, for half the price. But they don't, because they do not want to send their kids to predominately black schools.

Re:A small town, a chemical plant and the residents' despera... by ajxs on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @08:49AM (#19848870)
> ...all the things that happen to poor households generally happen more intensively to black households.

That was kinda my point, but black communities being over-represented among the population at risk does not mean necessarily imply that this action was a targeted predatory action against the black community. If you sample the population of these areas, you're obviously going to find samples representative of larger marginalised communities.

Re:A small town, a chemical plant and the residents' despera... by reallytho9 on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:10AM (#19848992)
It’s not that it’s necessarily targeted maliciously (they probably didn’t sit around and decide “hey, let’s poison a town!”), but things like this happen because black communities are marginalized and have no power (_especially_ in the south). You want to build a chemical plant. Well, the white people have money and power and all kinds of means to fight it: they have lawyers to sue, they have the freedom to show up to Council meetings, they have representatives who share their race and socioeconomic status. Poorer black communities have little to none of that. So it’s easier to build your plant in the poor, black town because nobody there can fight back effectively. Sure, it’s not lynching, you’re right. But it’s still systemic racism, just a softer, gentler version than perhaps your grandfather’s racism.

It’s not as simple as deciding whether or not you want to poison a town.

Re:A small town, a chemical plant and the residents' despera... by jbay808 on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @11:35AM (#19850480)
I'm not sure racism is the right term to use here. This seems more like the inevitable consequence of the cold, heartless, uncaring logic of politics, game theory, and capitalism. To paint it as racism sort of implies that somewhere along the line, someone who doesn't like black people decided to put the pollution there on purpose because of their personal prejudices. But it seems (to me) that this same thing would happen in a parallel universe to any less-powerful community, regardless of whether their marginalized status were due to race, language, legal immigration status, religion, inherited debt, etc.

Racism is probably an indirect cause in this particular case because it contributed to the community's lack of power. But I also think that labelling this as racism does more to confuse rather than clarify the issue, and points to solutions along the wrong axis. If the best solution is reduction of racism, then it makes sense to call this problem caused by racism. If it's actually best solved by economic policy or legal changes, then it's probably more helpful to phrase it as an economic problem or so on. Otherwise we'll be looking in the dark for a racist bad guy to punish and solve the problem, but we won't find one.

Re:A small town, a chemical plant and the residents' despera... by ScottBurson on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:01PM (#19850722)
That's what systemic racism is: not necessarily a specific animus held by individuals, but an aspect of the structure of society that has effectively racist consequences.
Re:A small town, a chemical plant and the residents' despera... by jbay808 on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @01:04PM (#19851310)
Does the concept pay rent though? There are a lot of ways to end up powerless and marginalized; a legacy of racism is one but I named a few others. Generally the concept that encompasses the result of a group of people being marginalized, irrespective of how it happened, is class.

Does it sufficiently capture reality to say that this discrimination happens to the lower class? In that case, "systemic racism" is mostly acting as shorthand for statistics that black people have less wealth on average, and points to an explanation of why. Or does this happen to black communities over and above that of other communities of comparable wealth? In that case, it makes sense to say that racism is a separate factor, beyond just economics.

I guess what I'm saying is, these are two different concepts with two different implied solutions:

A) A history of racism is why black communities are poor, and all poor communities equally suffer these burdens.

B) Black communities suffer these burdens over and above equally poor communities.

In case A, measures to increase wealth equality might solve the problem. In case B, that might not be sufficient, and deeper causes of lingering racist discrimination might need to be sought.

Just labeling the issue "systemic racism" does more to confuse rather than clarify how to solve it, I think.

Re:A small town, a chemical plant and the residents' despera... by ajxs on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @11:11PM (#19855586)
What do you mean by 'racist consequences'? Intent can be racist, belief can be racist, but consequences are just the resulting state. A racist policy is one that targets one particular race in a hostile way. A policy that is applied evenly to the entire population but impacts one race disproportionately, while entirely unfortunate, does not in itself constitute racism.

I know this is tangential and a bit of a nitpick, but I feel the semantic difference here is important.

Re:A small town, a chemical plant and the residents' despera... by jadell on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:15PM (#19850854)
What you just described is called "systemic racism" where the power structures and the rules were established to perpetuate oppression, but done within the rule of law so that no individual in the system seems explicitly racist. If you're looking for a bureaucrat in an office making a decision because they don't like black people, you're not going to find one. Instead, you're going to find things like, e.g. redlining and the interstate highway program.
Re:A small town, a chemical plant and the residents' despera... by xyzzyz on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @11:37AM (#19850500)
> Poorer black communities have little to none of that.

So do poorer white communities.

Re:A small town, a chemical plant and the residents' despera... by jadell on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:21PM (#19850918)
Poor white communities tend to be rural, away from the infrastructure that would support these types of industry. In general, no one builds out there, except for agriculture (which has its own issues; see the on-going fight over smell and water pollution in NC over pigs farming.)

Poor black communities tend to be urban or suburban, right near the cities and commercial hubs where you'd want to build a chemical plant or industrial mill.

Re:A small town, a chemical plant and the residents' despera... by true_religion on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:03PM (#19850746)
Seeing as you are in the area, I wonder what you think or have heard of North Arlington past Lee highway or Shirlington?

Historically and in the current day that is where the black neighborhoods are. However, living in the area for over 20 years people have always spoken better of Shirlington.

PG always had an interesting problem: middle-class professional parents, but teenagers who bought into urban gang culture for no apparent reason. This lead to a higher crime and harassment rate there, leading people to feel like it was a ghetto even if income stats wouldn't reflect.

Annandale had a similar problem, but with the Hispanic crowd.

Disclaimer: I am black. My notions come from the black community.

Re:A small town, a chemical plant and the residents' despera... by rayiner on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @04:39PM (#19853240)
I don’t know if I heard too much about different places within Arlington. I went TJ, which is basically in Annandale, so there was a large population of folks there from the richer parts of the county that had a negative attitude toward local folks.