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Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by onion2k on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @08:43AM (#19848831)
Robots don't just spring in to existence from nothing. Someone made the decisions necessary to make the robot do the work they're selling (even if that's just deciding what training data and biases to feed in to something they choose to call AI). You can sue that person.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by rfugger on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:31AM (#19849119)
You sue whoever misrepresented the robot's capabilities to you. There's nothing wrong with making a robot that's bad at trading. There is something wrong with pretending it's not bad at trading when you're selling it.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by mindslight on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @11:40AM (#19850532)
Your answers diverge, depending on who is operating the "robot". If it's being presented as a service by an investment firm, then you obviously have a standard dispute with the investment firm, the same as if one of the human brokers went nuts. If was sold as a software system to be self-administered, then you have an issue with a vendor. The latter may hinge solely on misrepresentation, because software is generally sold with little warranty for precisely these reasons.

So much money slushing around can make things a little grayer because in either case the investor didn't actually perform any work themselves. But I'm confident they can use some of that money to discern who ultimately owned what, who employed who, and what type of relationship was created.

I feel like newswriters just love to generate hot air with this "sue a robot" trope. Who to sue for that?

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by tomp on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:59PM (#19851272)
Is it even possible to misrepresent the robot's capabilities? In the UK most (all?) advertisements come with cautionary notices such as "capital at risk" or "past performance not indicative of future returns" or similar...

Although obviously such warnings can't reach some people... My favourite example of this was the collapse of OptionSellers.com following the huge move in Natural Gas futures. I mean, they were selling options - it's right there in the name...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-19/hedge-fun...

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by TuringNYC on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @01:56PM (#19851826)
IANAL but I could see a lawsuit being possible if historical "actual" performance figures were misrepresented or back-tested theoreticals (read: overfit) were passed as actuals.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by inflatableDodo on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:34AM (#19849767)
What if it good at trading but can be unlucky?
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by bumby on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @11:49AM (#19850595)
Then I'd say the probabilistic nature of the model was not represented correctly by the seller.

Saying the algorithm makes 95% winning trades may not mean much if those remaining 5% of trades cause you to lose most of your value.

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by inflatableDodo on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @06:58PM (#19854223)
Protip, do not try this argument in Vegas.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by bumby on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:54AM (#19858353)
Good point, but at least the probabilities of casino games are generally known and available AFAIK. People just tend to not care or have a confidence bias.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by Loughla on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @11:39AM (#19850516)
If it's a robot, designed, programmed appropriately, and trained using the correct data to digest and understand later data, can it be unlucky?
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by inflatableDodo on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @11:42AM (#19850541)
John Maynard Keynes' remark that 'the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent', springs immediately to mind.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:17PM (#19850874)
Yes, unlucky just means that random/arbitrary decisions or events didn't "favour" you.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by hammock on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:32AM (#19849127)
What if that person didn't fully understand how the robot worked? The best your could hope for is negligence
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by rfugger on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:40AM (#19849182)
If they didn't fully understand how it worked, but fraudulently represented that they did, they'd be on the hook. It all hinges on what he was promised when he bought it. If they had a good disclaimer, then he might be out of luck.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by onion2k on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:56AM (#19849324)
There are places where adopting AI is going to be difficult for this reason - notably anywhere that has a legal requirement to explain why a decision went a particular way. That includes things like insurance risk models, pension investments, etc.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by cosmodisk on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @02:12PM (#19851955)
The losses made by software training may be the least problem for the institution.If case goes to court,they may be required to reveal the reasoning behind software's decision and that means going through the code,as all that marketing bs called AI is just a trading algorithm trained on some datasets. No company would want to reveal the code.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by bumby on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @01:22PM (#19851473)
In these cases, I wonder if it would cause a movement toward more interpretative models with more mathematical backing.

For example, if not being able to explain a model leaves an organization open to litigation, they may instead rely on statistical based learning methods even if they performed less well.

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by hinkley on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @03:08PM (#19852443)
What if some other person really understands how the robot worked and half of the money you lost ended up directly in their accounts?

Is cheesing an algorithm illegal?

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by hammock on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:36AM (#19849149)
We're already seeing companies shirk responsibility of their automated processes. The censorship by social media is a prime example. When somebody complains that Twitter shadowbanned them, Twitter will point the finger at the algorithm and say they couldn't help it, it's not what it looks like, it's just the algorithm.

For the time being, they often go back and give posts and accounts a manual second review, and often reverse the decision. For now, that keeps the general conversation around this issue from going too far. But it can't last.

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by steveeq1 on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:22AM (#19849069)
20 years ago, when I described open source software to a lawyer, I got that exact same question. I told him, well, you can sue the developer I suppose, but he doesn't have very much money. The lawyer responded "well, I don't feel comfortable using software where there is no accountability". Looking back, this seems like a silly argument that most people don't follow in any meaningful way in this day and age.

In the end, people will use whatever software has a good reputation. If something bad happens, well it's on them. The sky didn't fall using this model.

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by Darkstryder on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:39AM (#19849175)
One could argue that 20 years ago there was little to no reputation (good or bad) for most open-source software, and that made using open-source software much more dangerous : it was more difficult to separate the good apples from the bad ones.

Therefore his criticism made sense at the time.

While open-source code and open-source maintainers are critical parts of the ecosystem, I think open source users are underrated. If nobody shared their experience about how a piece of open-source software is actually behaving once you put it to use in production, open-source software would have much less value than it currently has.

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by steveeq1 on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:53AM (#19849293)
No, open source has been a "thing" for quite some time even in 1998. No, the guy just didn't get it. He asked questions like who do you sue if something goes wrong. . . where is the market incentive to create software if there is no strong intellectual property rights. . . what if someone steals the code and makes a million dollars. . . What if the original author dies starving while some rich corporation takes advantage? I mean, really silly arguments when you look back.

I told him that most of the software using this model is simply more reliable than proprietary software, but he just didn't get it. There was already plenty of "reputation" even back then, he just wasn't a hacker and couldn't understand any other perspective other than his own.

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by eropple on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:54AM (#19849302)
> What if the original author dies starving while some rich corporation takes advantage? I mean, really silly arguments when you look back.

The evolution of open source software in the twenty years hence suggests that this particular question is not as silly as you frame it.

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by steveeq1 on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:15AM (#19849547)
No, open source software has been a regular thing since the 1980's and arguably with 1970's with richard stallman. It was already 20 years old by the time I was explaining it to the lawyer. He was just unable to understand anything that wasn't part of his paradigm.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by eropple on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:16AM (#19849566)
Being "a regular thing" and being "a thing that enriches companies off the backs of community-minded software developers" are not concepts in conflict.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by Darkstryder on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:16AM (#19849557)
"The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed."

You're right that open source had been a thing for quite some time in 1998. GNU was started in 1983 after all.

But I respectfully disagree that open source was "obvious" in 1998. Hell, at that time, one could argue it was not obvious for a lot of people how much the Internet and computers would alter our lives. Open source was the least obvious part of quite a few a mind-bending paradigm shifts.

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by Retric on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:24AM (#19849665)
Open source was very obvious in 1998 for competent tech companies. As in look at successful companies in 2005 and most of them where using OS software in 1998.

One of PG’s essays has a line like, ‘any competitor using Oracle was easy to ignore.’ Successful OS software needs to be good enough not to need marketing and happens to be free. It might not be the best, but cheap and good enough generally has a lot going for it.

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by Darkstryder on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:47AM (#19849949)
I fully agree. But I was talking about a (presumably not very tech-enthusiast) lawyer from 1998, not a software developer from that time.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by jnty on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:29AM (#19849710)
This is wrong on a higher level too as most commercial software will disclaim all liability for the correct operation of their software unless you pay them lots of money for a support contract. Turns this is just as viable a business model for OSS too, as Redhat and others found out.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by middleload on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:44AM (#19849217)
I'd argue that the same is true today. No big org is using pure OSS. They have big contracts with Redhat and the likes and they like to pretend that they're covered.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by nradov on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:50AM (#19849265)
It's not just pretend. If the big org finds a defect and opens a support ticket, Red Hat will actually fix it.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by tremon on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @10:37AM (#19849811)
Yet if the big org loses money due to said defect, the supplier will not reimburse that. No matter if it's Red Hat, Microsoft, Oracle, IBM, or Google.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by bluGill on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:54AM (#19849303)
You always pay for all software in time. Someone needs to install the software in your company. Someone needs to answer support calls. If you pay RedHat when your people can't figure it out they can turn to someone else - a specialist (You hope: Redhat has a good reputation but there is always risk it is just someone else who knows less than you and will take more of your time understanding the problem than to just figure it out yourself.)

My CEO could do my job. He would need an additional degree in programming, and even more time in a day. He hires me because telling my bosses bosses (skip several levels) boss to get something done will go down the chain into figuring it out how to go from we need to grow market share in the area I'm working to actual code that will grow that market share. This across thousands of employees - the CEO could learn to do any one but he can't do all of them.

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by sonnyblarney on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:59AM (#19849360)
"No big org is using pure OSS"

On the contrary every big org is using OSS.

OSS is in everything.

That there is 'nobody to sue' is besides the point, it's like suing the inventor of the fork because something happened with a fork.

If you bought something complicated from someone with a contract and you depend on it doing ABC and it doesn't, then there's a case of liability.

But tons of software is OSS and there's nobody to sue.

'Liability' in software is maybe important in some areas, but mostly it's not.

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by hinkley on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @03:11PM (#19852464)
Society is full of algorithms that have a good reputation that they don't deserve.

Most of our problems as a society are due to that gap.

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by koltax on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @09:00AM (#19848941)
Yeah, seems like a click bait. You sue the owner, as he did.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by fatnoah on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @11:24AM (#19850353)
Definitely click bait. The real title wouldn't be as interesting. "Who to sue when an algorithm doesn't work the way you were told it did?" That makes the answer very obvious. You sue the person that misrepresented what the algorithm does, which is indeed what is happening here.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by IceWreck on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:14PM (#19850845)
Why? The software did it was supposed to do. It doesn't guarantee profits. There's a risk involved.

If anyone should be sued, its Costa (Captain Magic/con-artist/salesperson/whatever) who, if what the investor claims is true, greatly oversold the capabilities of the software.

And even then there might not be a strong case against him.

Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by ErikVandeWater on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:23PM (#19850931)
The only thing that matters is what's in the contract. It doesn't matter if Costa said it worked using gnomes living inside the computer.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by IceWreck on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @12:30PM (#19850994)
There's no way the T&C doesn't have a clause about the creators not being responsible for the trading bot's actions.
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by diminoten on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @01:50PM (#19851747)
The real article should have been, "Is the liability limitation clause enough?"
Re:Who to Sue When a Robot Loses Your Fortune by wbl on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @11:02PM (#19855557)
Yes it does. That's a material misrepresentation and hence fruad.