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Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by Fnoord on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:18PM (#19827799)
> And to the downvoters: doesn't this entire fiasco ENTIRELY PROVE MY POINT?

No.

All it proves is that certificates expire (which is a Good Thing (tm)). If you depend on online certificates to verify content, something like this can theoretically happen.

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by overgard on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:36PM (#19827911)
So you think Mozilla is enjoying this right now? And that this is going to help the perception and market share of Firefox?

Hypothetically, lets say they took the opposite approach, and only checked the certificate date on installation. What would have happened? There would have been a brief period of time where people couldn't install extensions, it would have been fixed in a few hours, and this story would probably have like 20 upvotes and fallen off the front page in like 10 minutes, if it ever got there in the first place.

Now let's briefly look at what's actually taking place: a bunch of people's browsers broke. It broke in scary ways for some people that were using extensions for privacy; IE, their security might have been compromised by this decision by Mozilla. Mozilla is probably going to lose users over this. Their reputation is damaged. Not only that, but now people are evaluating other decisions that Mozilla has made separately from this in an unfavorable light (Studies and Normandy, specifically). The computing industry loses out on this too: we're all better off for chrome having a viable open source competitor. We should want Mozilla to do well, whether you use their browser or not.

Which outcome do you think Mozilla engineers would be preferring today?

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by owl57 on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:14PM (#19828172)
Not only that, but now people are evaluating other decisions that Mozilla has made separately from this in an unfavorable light (Studies and Normandy, specifically).

Sounds like a good thing. Probably sounds like a good thing to some of the engineers at Mozilla.

The computing industry loses out on this too: we're all better off for chrome having a viable open source competitor.

I want a free competitor, not an open source one. And this is the most prominent example of that somewhat subtle distinction: Firefox is open source, but with all these backdoors it's no longer free, neither in spirit nor in practice.

P.S. On the other hand, it's probably indeed better to have at least two serious competing browsers, even if they are both non-free.

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by overgard on Saturday May 04, 2019 @03:08PM (#19828538)
I do agree; although, it would have been nice for this discussion to come up without things breaking like this.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by Fnoord on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:44PM (#19827962)
You are putting words in my mouth, please stop that.

Instead of disabling this historically working feature which normally works great against hostile attacks such as MITM and malware this problem would've been avoided by a simple cron script which runs daily, and checks for expired certificates used within the infrastructure (both interaly used and externally used).

The main competitor you mention, Google Chrome, is a terrible privacy hazard. This situation does not change that.

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by overgard on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:59PM (#19828061)
I'm not putting words in your mouth, you literally said this is a "Good Thing (tm)", because of hypothetical security reasons. Whereas I'm literally saying that this actually broke real privacy extensions, broke peoples software, and badly damaged their reputation.

As to your argument about security: doing the check on install instead of all the time, as I suggest is preferable, still protects against MITM and malware. The only argument for expiring software based on a calendar is that it might be a security risk if it's out of date. But first off, that is highly dependent on what the extension actually does. Also clearly we can see it's also a security risk to turn off privacy extensions without warning based on an arbitrary signing certificate.

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by Fnoord on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:08PM (#19828133)
Things might change after install. Its a Good Thing (tm) to periodically recheck, or check revocations.

> > I'm not putting words in your mouth [..]

Yes, you did:

> "So you think [..]"

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Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by Fnoord on Saturday May 04, 2019 @03:37PM (#19828746)
What about the first part I wrote? Do you find CRL a useful feature in CAs/WoTs?
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by beezle on Saturday May 04, 2019 @07:39PM (#19830108)
Just because a cert expires is not a valid reason to disable functionality with no override available to the user. You may already know, you can override when visiting a website with an expired cert (once or forever). Yet nobody at Moz seemed to think it a good idea to allow it for extensions. Great.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by Fnoord on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:53AM (#19831838)
Fair point, hopefully they'll learn from this mistake and ensure the user can easier adapt. I expect them to, since I have Mozilla high in regard.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by rebolek on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:02PM (#19827699)
You obviously never used Windows, so you’ve never encountered them restarting just because of an update.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by overgard on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:05PM (#19827720)
I have and it still infuriates me :-)

I also did a bunch of sketchy registry hacks to fix that. (I keep up to date, but I don't need microsoft restarting my system at random hours)

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by wool_gather on Saturday May 04, 2019 @12:54PM (#19827633)
No, I totally agree with that (I just edited to expand on this point). It was a bad user experience.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by overgard on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:04PM (#19827717)
Well, I disagree that it's a UX issue. The problem is they shouldn't be expiring local software at all. If it was trustworthy at the time of install, why should the calendar date matter?

If users don't want to stay up to date, that may be unwise, but that's there call.

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by rincebrain on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:08PM (#19827742)
Because if the cert is (for example) actively revoked, that probably means you should stop trusting things signed by it in the past.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by nitrogen on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:22PM (#19827824)
But revocation is different from expiration.

If you're worried about a cert being compromised long after expiration and used to back-date a signature, you can show a warning, add a second signature with a local key at time of installation, use a blockchain to prove age, have a timestamping service generate its own signature at time of generation, etc.

Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by rincebrain on Sunday May 05, 2019 @12:36PM (#19833592)
Sure, my point was mostly that there are reasonable cases in which one might want to evaluate the signing of an addon after the fact.
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by the8472 on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:22PM (#19827825)
That might make sense for TLS certificates where the server can change their content on a whim. A signed and installed addon has been trusted possibly for years, the need for sudden revocation is not dire enough compare to the price you have to pay for that (this failure, always-online requirement)
Re:Update Regarding Add-Ons in Firefox by overgard on Saturday May 04, 2019 @01:20PM (#19827812)
Revocation should handled differently than expiration. Two entirely separate things.