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Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by abalone on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @05:40PM (#19801906)
Request for startup: If you want to disrupt payments, do a gateway that captures U.S. major debit transactions and handles them at 0.1% + $.30 (still a healthy margin) and redirects the rest to a higher-fee processor.

Little known fact: Major debit card interchange is regulated by law at 0.05% + $0.22.[1] That's right, a twentieth of one percent. The gross margin for a processor like Stripe that charges 2.9% + $0.30 on these transactions is just astronomical. A U.S. payment gateway that specializes in low cost debit card processing arbitrage would instantly start saving startups money. It also give them the option of steering their customers to low cost debit, for example by requiring it for discounted annual subscription rates.

This would work where other efforts have failed. Crypto never took off for consumer payments for a variety of reasons, among them no wallet penetration and no consumer protections. ACH is inconvenient to set up and also has poor consumer protections. Debit cards on the other hard are widely available, safe and easy to use.

[1] https://www.burlingtonbankcard.com/home/interchange-plus-cre...

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by nrb on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:47PM (#19803773)
Trying to fight a titan on margin seems like a fool's errand. If customers are truly price sensitive and it makes a noticeable dent in Stripe's bottom line, what's to stop them from a price war with you just long enough to make you insolvent?

There might be a nice business in there somewhere, but disruption is overstating it quite a lot I think.

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by tomaskafka on Thursday May 02, 2019 @03:32AM (#19805604)
Definitely a nice niche business - they won't do a price war, they would have to lower their margins significantly, and no big company ever did that except whith bankrupcy on a horizon.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by acct1771 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @03:44PM (#19811926)
...............

Have you heard of Standard Oil?

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by abalone on Thursday May 02, 2019 @04:23AM (#19805831)
You could say that about a lot of companies. Stripe is far from a dominant “titan” in the processing industry which is something like $2T in global volume. As in Trillion.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by runako on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @11:02PM (#19804238)
Do people use debit cards online? Should they?

The (US) regulations around liability for fraudulent charges for debit cards are totally different those for credit cards [1]. Specifically, consumers bear far more potential liability if their debit cards are used fraudulently than if their credit cards are used fraudulently.

The money quote from the section on what the consumer is liable for if their debit card is used fraudulently: "All the money taken from your ATM/debit card account, and possibly more; for example, money in accounts linked to your debit account."

By contrast, credit card liability tops out at $50.

Given the regulatory environment, it is not very consumer-friendly to encourage wider use of debit cards online.

If you have access to a credit card, you should use it instead of a debit card when purchasing online. (And in person, but the OP is about online payments.)

[1] https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0213-lost-or-stolen-cr...

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by abalone on Thursday May 02, 2019 @03:47AM (#19805670)
> Do people use debit cards online?

Yes. Debit is actually more popular than credit for online transactions, according to one survey.[1]

> Should they?

Kind of an orthogonal question. The fact is people use them and there’s an opportunity to process them more cheaply.

[1] https://www.digitaltransactions.net/consumers-increasingly-p...

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by saurik on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:05AM (#19804924)
It is maybe worth explicitly noting that for most online products with small ticket sizes (maybe $5) what you really want is to use someone like PayPal (which supports being used merely as a backend credit card processor) that has a micropayment pricing level (PayPal offers 5% + $0.05). The percent is high, but the fixed cost of $0.30/$0.22/whatever dominates the cost up to over $10.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by tomaskafka on Thursday May 02, 2019 @03:34AM (#19805610)
> PayPal offers 5% + $0.05

How? All I see is $0.30 + 3-5 % (which means 10 % from every $5 transaction - I'd love to lower this!) https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/merchant-fees

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by saurik on Thursday May 02, 2019 @04:19AM (#19805806)
Do a Google search for [PayPal micropayments] and read the various help articles that result. (edit: ...or just scroll down on the page you linked, which literally has a section on this called "Micropayment Fees".)
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by abalone on Thursday May 02, 2019 @04:34AM (#19805876)
Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe PayPal micropayments requires the customer to have a PayPal account linked to their bank account (ACH). So, considerably less convenient than using a card.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by saurik on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:11AM (#19831585)
I am very sure you are wrong (that, or I'm misunderstanding what you are saying as something more subtle about the account and not about the payment: you definitely can receive payments made by users using credit cards with this rate; it would be entirely useless if that weren't the case, as frankly ACH is too slow to use for a purchase transaction, and I think sane merchants just disable accepting such payments--what PayPal sometimes calls "eChecks"--to avoid confusion).
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by tbgvi on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @06:02PM (#19802116)
The debit rates you are referencing are for in-person transactions where a pin number is entered. Debit cards can be used for online transactions but the interchange cost is more like 1.8% + $0.10.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by abalone on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @06:07PM (#19802160)
False. Regulated e-commerce card-not-present debit interchange (i.e. online transactions) is 0.05% + $0.22.[1]

Kind of mind blowing, right?

[1] https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/global/support-legal/documents...

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by smarri on Thursday May 02, 2019 @04:55PM (#19812813)
What's the difference between ACH and debit cards? Do they both debit a persons bank account directly? (I'm not based in the USA)
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by darkestloud on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @05:52PM (#19802021)
Consumers prefer to use credit cards, for many reasons one of which is points.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by abalone on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @06:05PM (#19802145)
False. More Americans use debit than credit for everyday purchases.[1]

[1] https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-cards/credit-debit-su...

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by masonic on Thursday May 02, 2019 @05:22PM (#19813104)
First, that's a survey (no actual usage data). Secondly, that differs from what consumers with a choice use. Many poor don't have credit cards; many more have impaired credit.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by icedchai on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @06:37PM (#19802367)
Most Americans are also financially illiterate. For every day purchases (not cash advances), it is always better to use a credit card that offers rewards points... as long as you plan on paying off your full balance every month. It's free money, period.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by awad on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:28PM (#19802711)
That's something only the minority of the population does, though.

"...average individual credit card debt stands at $5,331 in 2019. Additionally, on a monthly basis, most Americans don't pay their credit card balance in full every month - 55% don't regularly pay in full."

https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/credit-cards/aver...

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by masonic on Thursday May 02, 2019 @05:23PM (#19813112)
Forgive me if I don't take a blog quoting "CreditDonkey.com" as its only source very seriously on this.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by woah on Thursday May 02, 2019 @11:46AM (#19809141)
It’s like the mirror image of gambling. You get a little money constantly and if you are (un)lucky, you lose a lot. I’m not really interested in playing someone’s rigged financial game for chump change.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by icedchai on Thursday May 02, 2019 @11:54AM (#19809250)
Not really. Assuming you never over extend yourself by spending more than you have, you never lose anything.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by philipov on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @06:01PM (#19802104)
> one of which is points

Citation needed. I hate points.

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by the_jeremy on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @06:04PM (#19802142)
Rewards would have been a more general term that still captures the meaning.

I get a flat 2% back on literal everything. I agree that points would be a pain, but extra cash is nice. (I know this functionally means everything is x% more expensive, something something tragedy of the commons externalities blah blah blah.)

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by mjevans on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @06:26PM (#19802291)
Yeah, I use Costco's "Citi Visa" card for exactly that reason. I'd still be charged the %, and at least this way I get the most useful thing /for me/ back as a reward.

That's the why I want a system that completely bypasses the insanity that are current credit/debit cards and goes directly to a modern approach (but isn't some blockchain, kill the planet with mining power, fad).

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by philipov on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @06:07PM (#19802159)
> I know this functionally means everything is x% more expensive

Exactly! I hate all rewards systems because they wouldn't be offering it if it weren't a scam. If you don't know who the fish is, it's you.

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by mkozlows on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @06:14PM (#19802206)
The "scam" is on everyone who doesn't have a rewards card. The increased interchange fees are shared by everyone, with reward card users reaping the benefit.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by victor106 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @10:37PM (#19804075)
I wonder which card gives you this benefit?
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by the_jeremy on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @01:58PM (#19851844)
citi double cash back or something like that
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by icedchai on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @06:36PM (#19802363)
You hate free money? Points are exactly that, as long as you pay off your credit card every month.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by jeromegv on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:27PM (#19803653)
The point is at that all merchant end up adding the 3% in their margin so what you buy is more expensive. You just lose if you don’t use points but, you aren’t actually gaining anything.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by icedchai on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:36PM (#19803718)
You're contradicting yourself. Since everyone is paying that extra 3%, by not getting the rewards / points you're at a disadvantage.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by philipov on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:39PM (#19803735)
No, it's you who, by supporting their toxic industry, are making things worse for everyone. c.f. Tragedy of the Commons. What you're advocating is a slave mentality.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by icedchai on Thursday May 02, 2019 @09:38AM (#19807749)
The people paying ~20% interest are slaves. For some, they have no choice and I sympathize with those.

I pay off my bill every month. I pay no interest, no fees, and get free stuff for it. You should do the same.

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by orthecreedence on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:29PM (#19803667)
It's not free. They take the enormous margin they get off the sellers and kick you back a few peanuts. Essentially, the sellers pay a tax, and you get a small distribution of the tax, and as a result all products are more expensive.

Points are useless.

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by icedchai on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:37PM (#19803728)
The products are going to be more expensive for everyone. Would you rather have a card that offers 2% rewards points or one that doesn't offer any? You are obviously better getting the points.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by orthecreedence on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:42PM (#19803748)
I understand how it works. I'm taking a bigger picture view and saying that if nobody had points, everything would be cheaper than if you had gotten the points in the first place.

Obviously in the current climate, a card that offers points is going to be more competitive than a card that doesn't, but that doesn't mean that points aren't a mind-bogglingly stupid proposition to begin with.

Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by masonic on Thursday May 02, 2019 @05:25PM (#19813129)
Yet those sellers don't offer their own discount or cashback for not using credit cards.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by philipov on Thursday May 02, 2019 @05:29PM (#19813158)
Yes they do. Gas stations have a Cash Price for not using a credit card. The ones who don't are just pocketing the difference because so many people don't think about what they're paying for.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by a_imho on Thursday May 02, 2019 @03:04AM (#19805468)
I don't need yet another minigame to manage in my life, thanks but no.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by icedchai on Thursday May 02, 2019 @09:17AM (#19807548)
There's nothing to manage.
Re:Payment gateways for startups: a guide for founders by hartator on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @06:03PM (#19802128)
And protections.