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Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by redwards510 on Monday April 29, 2019 @04:33PM (#19782349)
Indeed! Unless this is a part of Google Maps, Waze, Uber, or Lyft, some extremely popular app on our phones is doing location and activity monitoring no one was aware of. It's especially frightening because this data could be used to deny people reasonable insurance rates in the future and they weren't even aware they were being logged.

I'm curious how they know a person is definitely driving and not a passenger.

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by jlarocco on Monday April 29, 2019 @06:56PM (#19783400)
> It's especially frightening because this data could be used to deny people reasonable insurance rates in the future and they weren't even aware they were being logged.

More expensive insurance is getting off easy. After getting caught two or three times people should lose their license over it, IMO. It's as dangerous as drunk driving.

That said, it is concerning how they're collecting this information.

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by stcredzero on Monday April 29, 2019 @08:07PM (#19783847)
Does the state of California believe that people have "a reasonable expectation of privacy" inside their cars while driving on the road?
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by jfk13 on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @03:22AM (#19785801)
In terms of driving behavior? I should hope not.

If I'm driving down the road with a phone held to my ear, a giant soda in the other hand, and steering with my knees, and I happen to pass a police officer, I hope they'd be allowed to stop me. I shouldn't be able to hide behind "I was in my private car, you had no right to look in on me and observe my behavior there."

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by stcredzero on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @01:28PM (#19789996)
If I'm driving down the road with a phone held to my ear, a giant soda in the other hand, and steering with my knees, and I happen to pass a police officer, I hope they'd be allowed to stop me

Some expectation of privacy probably applies to conversations inside the car. Also, there might be a different way to think about the entire record of behavior of where one drives. Neither of those would interfere with policing of the behavior you cite.

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by Spooky23 on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @03:53PM (#19791296)
No. Anything that isn't in a locked trunk is in public view.

Driving is a privilege, not a right.

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by jlarocco on Monday April 29, 2019 @09:28PM (#19784319)
No idea, I don't live in California.
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by rz2k on Monday April 29, 2019 @08:12PM (#19783884)
There should be a lot of signals to perceive where the user is sitting. If the phone is resting in the center console, the accelerometers can tell whether it is being lifted up to the right or to the left of the car whenever it is being used. It could tell whether it is resting in the center console or the left or right side of the car depending on the shape of arc, distance travelled, centrifugal forces whenever the car follows the road around a left vs. a right turn.

If they care about accuracy to put in the engineering investment, it could be right a very high percentage of the time.

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by michaelmrose on Monday April 29, 2019 @08:22PM (#19783944)
My phone sometimes insists I'm driving on water. I don't believe you can tell the difference between drivers and passengers seats without in car sensors.
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by rubyfan on Monday April 29, 2019 @09:33PM (#19784344)
They can tell by which way you enter the car. This is problematic since women commonly put their purse in the passenger seat sometimes via the passenger door.
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by michaelmrose on Monday April 29, 2019 @10:31PM (#19784623)
You can easily be off by meters or even 10s of meters in terms of the position of the phone.

You have no way to know the position of the car in relation.

You would need car sensors and per car interior data and even then it would likely confuse a driver holding a phone in their right hand and a passenger holding it in their left.

You talk about the phone keeping track of where the phone not only is but was historically in order to guess if you are driving and texting and I hear you want to design a broken system that is not even deterministically broken.

It also fails to account for people passing a phone around to someone else in the car.

I wouldn't be able to give my phone to a passenger because it would already have decided it is a a driver's phone.

Your users will only be able to use your phone if they can reverse engineer what their phone thinks they are doing.

Anyone who does not charge their phone will see car travel destroy their battery life.

One can trivially avoid such a feature by disabling GPS but most people won't have to worry about it because they just won't pay hundreds of dollars more for a phone that randomly doesn't work even in the passenger seat because it's incorrectly second guessing you.

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by testpostpls on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @03:44AM (#19795246)
Your phone can just use its camera(s) to figure out where it is inside a car.
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by batsy71 on Monday April 29, 2019 @08:27PM (#19783966)
Being able to detect which lane of the road you are on is still challenging enough for self-drive technology. A cheap phone sensor most likely doesn't have such spatial resolution.
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by watermanio on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @03:43AM (#19785884)
There are probably simpler ways - for example, if an accident report states there was only one person in the car, it was probably the driver using his phone.
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by asdff on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @03:42PM (#19791191)
So what happens to my rates if I sit in the back left seat and the uber driver is an absolute maniac on the road.
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by lostphilosopher on Monday April 29, 2019 @05:37PM (#19782826)
My wife and I have different phones and have consistently found the map experience better on mine. When we travel I drive and she uses my phone to navigate...
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by stcredzero on Monday April 29, 2019 @08:07PM (#19783856)
It would be easy to cross-correlate this sort of relationship. (The passenger seat navigator.)
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by rubyfan on Monday April 29, 2019 @09:17PM (#19784264)
As a matter of practicality using this data adversely against customers is unlikely.

1. This is literally almost everyone on the road (that should frighten you more than insurance companies having this data)

2. Insurance is a highly regulated industry. Each state has a department of insurance that regulates how insurers apply rate and underwriting.

3. There are many voluntary opt-in programs out there that reward good behavior and marginally penalize bad behavior. Those programs focus on a few behaviors, none of which are distraction at the moment and they are all opt-in.

Full disclosure - I work at a large insurance company and am also an EFF donor. This is near and dear.

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by UweSchmidt on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @03:09AM (#19785751)
It is virtually guaranteed that this data will be used adversely against customers. Insurances want to find reasons why not to pay out, and will find those reasons in the data they collect.

Insurance may be "highly regulated" but regulation on what data can be collected is underdeveloped.

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by FerretFred on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @06:57AM (#19786791)
"As a matter of practicality using this data adversely against customers is unlikely"

It's the Insurance Industry - of course they'll use it against their customers!

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by TheSpiceIsLife on Monday April 29, 2019 @10:42PM (#19784673)
> As a matter of practicality using this data adversely against customers is unlikely.

People are not perfectly spherical insurance customers operating in a vacuum.

In light of that, what non-adversely uses does this data have with respect to the people whom are the target of this data collection?

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by rubyfan on Monday April 29, 2019 @11:20PM (#19784862)
Helping them and everyone else find behavioral solutions to avoid using their phone while driving, for example rewarding good behavior with discount, gift cards, etc.

There are a number of insurance companies literally trying to help adjust behavior in order to save lives of those distracted and the innocent bystanders and other drivers on the road.

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by loeg on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @12:49AM (#19785240)
This is literally using the data adversely to the "badly behaved" customers.
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by drb91 on Monday April 29, 2019 @11:05PM (#19784796)
Honestly they could start by building voice controls that people want to use rather than the voice assistant bullshit. Idk what the google one is like, but siri is a toy.
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by toss1 on Monday April 29, 2019 @11:16PM (#19784838)
The Google assistant is sort of ok while it works, but it often fails in the most critical situation.

E.g., "OK Google, Call Home".

nothing.

Why? Because it is telling you, usually with a silent on-screen notification that you need to unlock your phone.

I have found that trying several times including swearing seems to unlock it.

But this is still creating a distraction while driving.

Very poorly thought out.

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by RhodesianHunter on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @12:02AM (#19785070)
It's not that it's poorly thought out, it's that speech-to-text is just ok, and deriving meaning from even perfect text is hard.
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by kwhitefoot on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @02:07AM (#19785511)
Dragon Dictate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_NaturallySpeaking) worked on less capable hardware 20 years ago and didn't need to be online to do it so how come voice recognition is so bad now.

You don't even need general purpose speech recognition to call someone on your mobile, just enough to recognize a trigger sound and the name of the person you want to call. This is how I could use voice recognition on my Nokia N73 to call anyone in my address book.

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by atoav on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @03:51AM (#19785921)
As I understood it the hard thing isn’t converting speech to text, it is understanding which text should lead to which actions.

Strangely enough in command line interfaces this works perfectly, so maybe we need just a more speech friendly way to call commands?

And why you’d need the cloud is beyond me. A speech assistent that fails once you don’t have a internet connection is not only annoying, in some cases it could become outright dangerous.

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by krageon on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @07:01AM (#19786823)
With a limited set of commands and fairly strict user training, you reduce this problem to "parsing a limited grammar" which is significantly easier. It's more or less what the current top-tier chatbots are doing. You don't need an outrageous amount of processing power for this.

The reason everything currently runs "in the cloud" is very simple; it binds you to the vendor and prevents anyone from reverse-engineering the software in any sort of usable form. It's essentially DRM gone wild.

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by jrib on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @04:48AM (#19786167)
I agree. I suspect most people would be a lot happier with a dozen or two commands customized to their personal use cases.

Instead we have companies shuffling data back to their servers attempting (and usually failing in my experience) to handle arbitrary commands mostly for the company's benefit

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by toss1 on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @05:51PM (#19792365)
Indeed.

Google Assistant DID figure out which case should lead to which actions. It knew that it was supposed to call home.

Instead of performing the action, it refused to perform the action and demanded that I use my hands to unlock the phone in precisely the situation where doing so was both illegal and dangerous.

You're right about the spurious cloud connection requirement. There is no way that we need to make a cloud connection for this or many other functions, yet it seems to be the default architecture for almost everyone these days. Just because you can does not mean you should.

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by tinus_hn on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @06:00PM (#19792446)
Dragon Dictate 20 years ago required training while today’s speech recognition works for the general population. A major difference.
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by toss1 on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @05:45PM (#19792296)
No. It is very poorly thought out

First, it is fully recognizing my speech.

It is then refusing to do the action because they decided that I need to unlock my phone, PRECISELY in the situation where I CANNOT use my hands to perform that action.

Also, I last summer had an opportunity/need to use an obsolete DragonDictate from circa 2009. This old software was FAR better at recognition and well-thought-out command flow than any of Microsoft's or Googles current offerings. Yes. it is hard, but doing better than a decade behind is not hard.

So, both your general premise and your specific characterization are wrong

Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by drb91 on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @10:19AM (#19788128)
You can just tell people exactly what to say honestly, I’m not looking for someone to chat with.
Re:Insurers Know How Often American Drivers Touch Their Phones by asdff on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @03:39PM (#19791168)
Why would they ever not use this data adversely against customers? Insurance companies already have offered an OBD tracker that would supposedly be used to prove you were a safe driver and therefore lower your rates. Why on earth would they not use this data to say "well you check twitter on the highway every morning, therefore we are raising your monthly payments by 20%." This is the entire insurance industry business model.