In Sweden I was paid to count votes. It's boring and important work, so it makes a ton of sense to me.

I'd prefer disinterested people counting votes for money to fanatics doing it idealistically. But perhaps my bias shines through in the phrasing...

I don't know how people hired and paid by the government in place are automatically less suspicious than volunteers who just want to help the community. Yes, I have the opposite bias :)

In France the counting process is open and anyone can observe it and report any irregularity. Also the way it is done, you have to have a conspiracy of a least 6 people if you want to meddle the result.

In practice, I've observed that rather than fanatics, volunteers are usually mild people who are just doing the work as a nice sunday activity who doubles as a democratic tradition. They are the same people you see picking up trash or doing other menial work for the community. Of course, my sampling rate is quite low, so take that as a grain of salt.

I've been counting 3 times now in The Netherlands, soon (if I get picked which is likely cause Amsterdam needs counters) is going to be my 4th time.

You get reimbursed some money (I think it is about 60 EUR for like 4 hours of counting, and it lasts until 1 AM often but depends per region). Doing the course before you count yields you another 25 EUR (I only did this once). If it weren't paid, then that'd be discrimination to people who cannot afford to take a day off for something like this (poor people). For us it is already tough as it is to get this show on the road with a young kid.

I can recommend to give it a whirl! You meet different people every time. I recommend to not discuss politics. Some people will try to, but its best to divert away from such. 1) You can't change the outcome anyway 2) Hence its pointless, and can only lead to fractures in the team 3) You and everyone else should aspire to remain neutral to avoid any potential bias.

> They are the same people you see picking up trash or doing other menial work for the community.

Here in NL the people who do that often have community service because they did something illegal and got caught or because they're youth (youth have to do voluntary work during their high school). The amount of people who go mental against plastic on the streets are zero to none, sadly.

> people who cannot afford to take a day off

Elections aren't on Sunday there? In France all elections are Sunday so that as many people as possible can go vote.

Usually on Wednesday evening. Now with the EU election its on Thursday. There's something to say about Sunday as well but I guess some very religious people wouldn't like that (bible belt).

I don't know about the very religious people, I'm fairly religious myself (but not of the denomination usually found in the Bible belt), but I don't mind going to vote on a Sunday, I usually go before or after the celebration. I prefer not to have to use PTO to go voting.

Another method would be to have the election day being a national holiday, like in Israel.

> 4 hours of counting, and it lasts until 1 AM often

I'm curious, what makes it so long ? Is it your voting system, or something else ?

In France, each time I went counting, it was always less than two hours.

> > They are the same people you see picking up trash or doing other menial work for the community.

I'm part of both groups of people ;).

Usually different elections are combined such as referendum (such as this one [1] referendum is gone now), Dutch water boards [2], municipality, or other elections. For me it starts at 9 PM when polling stations are closed, and ends at about 1 AM give or take. People who are part of the polling place team sit there all day long, but they also get paid more (what I said was for counters only). Basically the people I speak to have next day free (took day off, self employed, or retired). Last time I only had about 4 hours of sleep. I need 8, so next day when I got home I slept 4 hours extra. I cannot do that easily anymore. I'd have the same issue on Sunday -> Monday, but not so much on Friday/Saturday -> Saturday/Sunday.

[1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_op_de_inlichtingen-_en_vei...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_board_(Netherlands)

The process is open and observable to the public in Sweden as well.

Using the word "fanatics" was needless. I was vaguely thinking of the idea that "nobody who wants to be president should ever be allowed to".

I don't doubt the unpaid French system works well. I'm happy to report the paid Swedish system also works well.

There might not be much for us to fight about. Sorry :)

In Belgium citizens are selected at random (there are filters such as age and civic rights I think) and are obliged to manage the electoral place set with ballots. If there isn't enough people showing up then the first voters are supposed to do the job.

You are supposed to get fined if you fail to show up and you were chosen but it's rarely applied except for the chief (president is the term) (who is also chosen at random) of the voting booths.

Voting is mandatory in Belgium so it kinda/maybe make sense to pick people among the population.

You are compensated for the day's work but not much.

I'd rather have random citizen do that job than civil servants.

It sounds pretty close to jury duty in the states. Picked randomly and paid something, not much but something.

Yes. Also it's one of the last `place` where citizens have directly something to do or say about how things are run: jury and election bureau.

I want to correct a mistake: you are supposed to get fined if you don't show up to vote but it's rarely enforced. However they will prosecute you if you were chosen to manage the place and don't show up whether you are the president or not.

The UK hires people: https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/no-qualifications-needed-how-...

I forget which constituency always returns first, but they make it a point of civic pride to do so; most of the staff doing the count are bank tellers.

A lot of council staff too. Election administration is a local government responsibility in Great Britain, and so many councils use their own staff as well as temporary workers. When I worked for Darlington council there was an all-staff email sent before the elections inviting us to sign on for an extra shift of counting for a modest-but-reasonable amount of extra pay.

Quite often in the UK Civil servants do this as in the past there was an assumption that you did not vote.

There are some very strict rules nothing with the candidates name or party name within a certain radius of the poling station - poll watchers cannot go inside the building unless escorted and so on.

Sunderland South is the constituency that usually gets it done first.

They also make sure the roads are clear on the night between the polling stations and the place where the votes get counted.

In the US poll workers are volunteer positions, as well. In my portion of the country (Southeastern US), they are mostly retired folks. Incidentally, I’ve always been impressed with how friendly and helpful they are, even when the there is much higher voter turnout.

In California poll workers are paid from $100 - $250 for the day depending on the job responsibilities and county.

That implies the most politically passionate people are going to be counting votes? Isn’t that a bad idea?

Places with partisan vote counting can avoid problems with this kind of thing by having partisans for multiple parties working on the same ballots, perhaps with a neutral overseer.

In Australia, the votes are counted by paid volunteers, but each party has scrutineers overseeing the counting.

Yeah, that’s a horrible idea. It’s the same reason most cities elect mayors but hire city managers, and why we try to pay legislators a decent salary. Otherwise only people with nothing else to do can afford to become politicians or count votes.

I did count votes a few times in my city: it's just a matter of 1 or 2h hours of your time on a sunday evening right after the vote is closed(6->8pm). And many people of all ages participate. Here we just see it a civic duty, like voting itself…

In Malaysia, any citizen can apply for the job. Also being paid. I worked as a worker once in the last election during the fall of Barisan Nasional. Luckily for me, the place of voting that I was placed in doesn't have many voters compare to other places so it's not tiring as it may seem. All in all, it was a fun experience one should get once in their lifetime.

In Spain you're forced to attend if they call you (supposedly they choose people at random), but they pay well.

In Australia you get paid. We have a federal election in a few weeks. I think it's around 300$ for election day.

I wanted to sign up to work at it, but their password reset form won't send me the email, and the number it says to call just leaves me on hold indefinitely.

It’s actually $435. Not bad!

You using google mail?

In Canada election staff are paid, and seems to be mostly retirees and stay-at-home parents who staff the polls, as anybody who actually needs the money doesn't want such a short-term low-paid job.

Furthermore, in Canada (Federal), deputy returning officers are chosen by the party or candidate received the most votes in the last election and poll clerk's are chosen by the party or candidate that came in second in the last election.

In practice though, a lot of folks are hired afterwards through the nonpartisan process.

In Russia polling stations staff are paid, though not much. Often they are picked from people working in public institutions like schools, hospitals, social aid centers. Theoretically they are appointed by political parties (so that each member represents different party) but this is mostly formal. For example, I saw a staff list where there were 3 people with same surname (probably relatives) at the same polling stations representing 3 different parties.

> In France ballots are counted by benevolent citizens at voting places, and I always assumed it was a necessary condition for free democratic elections.

On the contrary, as an Australian who has been employed in several elections, I've always assumed that paying election staff is both fair and necessary to ensure neutrality and competence.

I mean, I'd quite happily do it for free, but work is work and needs to be compensated as such.

I was going to ask if the French have anything as ridiculous as Australian senate ballot papers. I wouldn't expect volunteers to deal with those.

Then I remembered that the senate count at Australian polling booths is a rough approximation, and volunteers could do it easily. Do the French take their ballots to a central office for professionals to check?

> Australian senate ballot papers

Oh gosh, I've just googled it[1], and I'm really glad we don't have such monsters.

French ballots are really straightforward [2], with just one name written on it.

To count them, the volunteers are grouped by tables of four: two people (alternatively) open an envelop containing one ballot, read the result aloud and put on a stack in the center of the table. Then the two remaining people independently note the score. In the end, the ballots and the envelops are re-countered and we check that it matches the sum of the candidate's scores. The ballots (and the envelops) are then stored in sealed bags.

The ballots aren't centrally checked unless a complaint is made by someone, suspecting fraud in their polling station.

In my city, we usually have around 30 people counting, and the process only take one or two hours.

[1]: https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3783/9557893855_135143ce49_b.j... [2]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/France_%...

Separately from our monstrously large Senate ballot papers, which are ultimately scanned and computer-counted at the central counting centre, our much smaller House of Representatives ballot papers still use preferential/instant-runoff voting.

The nature of preferential/IRV systems requires that ballot papers be counted centrally for the entire district, as distribution of preferences needs to take into account all ballots from all polling places. However, we still conduct a preliminary count in each polling place which is used among other things for media purposes. The full, definitive count is a lengthy process which can take weeks, and is conducted centrally - also including postal ballots and absentee ballots from other parts of the country.

The same staff who are responsible for counting ballots at the end of the day are also responsible for setting up the polling place and issuing ballots throughout the day, which requires some procedural training especially for officers responsible for issuing absentee ballots and things like that. At the polling places I've worked at, we've usually had 1000-2000 voters come through on election day, and would have 5-10 staff working there. Counting and polling place packup usually takes us 3-4 hours.

(Also if you think the ballot paper image you linked was big - I refer you to https://www.flickr.com/photos/heritagefutures/5560654939, which shows 311 candidates running for the New South Wales Legislative Council in 2011.)

In Canada it's a paid position. Various rates for different roles as listed here: https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=emp&dir=pos&do...

Up to $247.94 / day.

Both in Denmark and in the UK workers are compesented for working at the polls/counting votes