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Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by lordlimecat on Sunday April 28, 2019 @09:51AM (#19771149)
Bullshit is saying "We stand for free speech" and then later saying "the best way to deal with toxic and hateful viewpoints is to censor and hide them."

Belief in free speech as a principle assumes that good and right arguments will win out every day in an open public forum.

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by clucas on Sunday April 28, 2019 @10:13AM (#19771221)
It probably isn't obvious from my posts, so I'll put it here explicitly: I'm not pro-censorship. I think ideas should be out there. My ideal world is one where there are the "big" sites with millions of DAU generally keep racist content (or at least the really nasty stuff) off their platform, but there are plenty of little sites that "keep the dream alive" so to speak.

A lot of people aren't going to be willing or able to actually engage with the real logic of an anti-racist argument. Instead, people use heuristics for this sort of work. In my ideal world, the question of "was this on a big site? or some little blog and/or known racist publication?" would serve as a useful heuristic re: what arguments to bother with. This is how newspapers generally settled out. Is it in the paper? If yes, then there are at least some standards. If no, e.g. if it's some vanity publication, then squint a little harder.

These sorts of things have happened every time we've had a big shift in information distribution technology. There's an explosion of ideas with no real markers to differentiate them, and mass chaos for a while as people sort it out. Then eventually people identify the signs of trustworthy info distributors, and it settles back down. If a platform allows racists to flourish, they're not going to remain a place that people can trust. I would like to see Reddit remain a place that has some amount of trust, so I'm happy they banned the really nasty racists.

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by the8472 on Sunday April 28, 2019 @11:18AM (#19771546)
> I think ideas should be out there. My ideal world is one where there are the "big" sites with millions of DAU generally keep racist content (or at least the really nasty stuff) off their platform, but there are plenty of little sites that "keep the dream alive" so to speak.

But reddit is already compartmentalized. Subreddits for fringe ideas are those "plenty of little sites", especially when they are delisted from the front pages.

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by meko on Sunday April 28, 2019 @09:12PM (#19775043)
Which is the only thing that happened. Being quarantined' on reddit just means you don't show up in r/all.
Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by marmada on Sunday April 28, 2019 @05:42PM (#19773897)
That assumption is false. Things like racism aren't motivated by rational arguments, so they cannot be cured through a rational tool, like free speech.

Racism stems from fear, hate, and deeply embedded cultural tools. You can't "cure" racism through argumentation. Maybe, maybe, you can make people less racist in person -- but on an anonymous forum like Reddit, not a chance.

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by aetherson on Sunday April 28, 2019 @06:19PM (#19774089)
The world is less racist now than it was in the past. What mechanism do you posit for this?
Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by tonyarkles on Sunday April 28, 2019 @07:21PM (#19774469)
I can't reply to the sibling comment that suggests education, but a corollary to education is that many of the people who had deeply-engrained racist beliefs are dying/dead from old age. I agree that the world is less racist now than it was in, say, the 1950s, but my personal experiences with the elderly suggests that the people who were racist in the 50s and are still alive are just as racist now as ever.
Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by lordlimecat on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:41PM (#19828356)
Youre saying that free speech can't cure racism because racism defeats reason. But in the very next breath you're claiming that education is responsible for winning over racism.

Don't you see the contradiction here? It can't be both.

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by aetherson on Sunday April 28, 2019 @07:36PM (#19774571)
That just begs the question. Young people today are not less racist because each generation magically improves. If they're less racist, then there had to be a mechanism for it.
Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by tonyarkles on Monday April 29, 2019 @10:58AM (#19778926)
This is totally an unsupported hypothesis. I have no data.

The mechanism I'm proposing is that the current generation has not been exposed to many of the toxic things that reinforced racist beliefs. Slavery, segregated schools, etc. Kids in school are taught why those things were bad and why racism is bad. While not all of society has abandoned racism, there's been enough of a push that the public institutions educating the next generation are making efforts to reduce it.

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by aetherson on Monday April 29, 2019 @03:16PM (#19781650)
But... slavery and segregated schools aren't weather. They didn't just happen. You seem like you're working really hard to avoid the idea that maybe some human convinced some other humans at some point to go from bad behavior to better behavior.
Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by tonyarkles on Monday April 29, 2019 @10:12PM (#19784527)
Absolutely some humans convinced some other humans! Enough, in fact, to make change! I'm not at all trying to avoid that idea. But I'm wholly unconvinced that when those things went away, a majority abandoned their racist notions. Rather, the next generation, when raised without the same degree of racism surrounding them, didn't take up those ideas to the same extent. It's not so much that people were convinced "I need to stop being racist" but rather that a subset was convinced "we can't teach this in our public schools"

That's all just observational though. Around here it's not so much racism against black folks but rather against aboriginal folk (and to some extent, middle eastern folks). I hear almost none of that crap from my generation or the younger generations, and still hear horrible amounts of it from older generations. Yes, some people in those generations changed, but it sure seems like the "racism rate" is significantly lower than the mean in the younger generations and significantly higher than the mean in the older generations.

Edit: it's also quite possible that it hasn't gone away in the younger generations either, it's just not considered something that is acceptable to say in polite company.

Edit 2: and thank you very much for making me think more about this!

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by snowwrestler on Sunday April 28, 2019 @10:59PM (#19775492)
The world is less racist because people have chosen to suppress racist speech and policies.

Are individual people any less racist than in the past? Who knows? Probably unprovable.

But our perception of the world is not governed by how people are, it is governed by what people do. And every person has a choice to promote, tolerate, or suppress racism. Choosing the latter is what makes the world seem less racist.

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by aetherson on Monday April 29, 2019 @09:18AM (#19778067)
What made people choose to suppress racist policies?
Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by bobdole12345 on Sunday April 28, 2019 @07:04PM (#19774360)
Education. The world is radically more educated than in the past.

That's not a product of free speech, it's a product of teaching people how to evaluate thoughts they come across in the wild.

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by aetherson on Sunday April 28, 2019 @07:09PM (#19774398)
Well, it's a theory. How do you plan to support it with evidence? I mean, the world is radically richer than in the past -- perhaps wealth causes less racism.
Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by lordlimecat on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:43PM (#19828366)
To suggest education cures Racism is to say that reason defeats racism, which in turn brings us back to free speech.
Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by pmarreck on Monday April 29, 2019 @10:22AM (#19778565)
> Things like racism aren't motivated by rational arguments

Yes they are, because that is exactly what newly-insular racist communities will use to bolster up their ideological positions... Cherry-picked evidence that makes their position look rational.

The idea that no racist is thinking rationally is ridiculous.

To the extent rationality is what got them into their racism, that is exactly the amount that rationality can remove them from racism. By definition.

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by lordlimecat on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:39PM (#19828341)
The logical nexus of your comment is that free speech is a failed concept and some central or distributed censors should curate which ideas are allowed.

How has that worked in the past?

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by berrynice on Sunday April 28, 2019 @11:57AM (#19771792)
>Belief in free speech as a principle assumes that good and right arguments will win out every day in an open public forum.

This is demonstrably not the case. Just look at the chans.

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by pmarreck on Monday April 29, 2019 @10:25AM (#19778596)
If you don’t believe in free speech on principle, I’m sure China and North Korea will take you, because you don’t belong in a Western democracy
Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by berrynice on Monday April 29, 2019 @01:33PM (#19780541)
I believe in the freedom of the people I agree with to speak, this argument is obviously absurd.
Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by 8note on Sunday April 28, 2019 @07:45PM (#19774624)
which is demonstrably not true? that belief in free speech assumes the right arguments winning, or that the right arguments win?
Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by berrynice on Monday April 29, 2019 @01:34PM (#19780556)
That the right arguments win.
Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by fzeroracer on Sunday April 28, 2019 @06:42PM (#19774204)
Hell, we can look at Voat and Gab as well for example of sites where absolute free speech as a principle has failed to result in any sort of good outcome.

Conveniently these sites are ignored or handwaved away or are somehow only because of censorship.

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by berrynice on Sunday April 28, 2019 @07:12PM (#19774420)
Yeah I used to use Voat right after /r/conspiracy started getting scared, things were civil and small scale and I had some fruitful discussions, that went to hell once the racist subs started getting hit.
Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by tzs on Sunday April 28, 2019 @01:15PM (#19772300)
> Belief in free speech as a principle assumes that good and right arguments will win out every day in an open public forum

That may have been correct 50 years ago, but technological changes since then call it into question.

It used to take a fair bit of effort on the part of information purveyors to get their information out to a wide audience. Generally you couldn't just come up with a bad or wrong argument and get it rapidly spread far and wide.

On the receiving end, it took a fair bit of time or effort to access information. We might regularly watch a scheduled TV news broadcast, read a daily newspaper, maybe also read a weekly news magazine to get a broader or deeper perspective, and also maybe read more specialized magazines for news and information on more specialized topics we were interested in. If we needed to go beyond that on a particular topic, we'd have to go to libraries or bookstores.

This combination of bottlenecks on both the production and consumption end meant that generally by the time bad and wrong arguments could start to get traction past a fringe audience there would have been time to develop good and right arguments to counter them, and that people would see those good and right arguments.

Nowadays, the barriers to widespread dissemination of the bad and wrong arguments are way lower. On the receiving end, instead of getting our information by setting aside time each day to read/watch a small number of high quality, consistent sources, many people get their news as a side effect of social activity. It is much less likely now that when they get a link to that bad and wrong stuff that they will also get a link to the good and right refutation. And remember, because the dissemination barriers are much lower now, they are getting the bad and wrong stuff on multiple topics, so even if someone does send them a refutation on one they might be too busy looking at the sensational bad and wrong stuff from another topic to go back and read the refutation of yesterday's stuff.

I think that most people recognize that it is important to be well informed. 50 years ago it took some work to be well informed, so we had to put some thought and effort into becoming so. Now, it is easy to think that you are getting well informed as a side effect of your other activities.

We weren't smarter back then, or less gullible, but there simply was much less of a grey area between uninformed and informed. Now there is a big grey area and it is easy to end up in it. The "let the good and right win out in open public forums" only works if the people in that forum who think they are informed actually are. If they are in that grey area, all bets are off.

The situation 50 years ago did have some problems, mainly that sometimes a thing that is actually good and right appears initially to be bad and wrong, and those barriers that helped keep bad and wrong things from spreading would also slow down those "really good and right but looks bad and wrong" things, too, so it took longer sometimes to adopt new good things.

We've removed that friction...but we've removed too much of it. You need some friction to slow down a bit so that people have time to evaluate and react.

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by Nursie on Sunday April 28, 2019 @10:54AM (#19771403)
So belief in free speech would appear, by that definition, to have been proven wrong.
Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by lordlimecat on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:46PM (#19828386)
It is astonishing and terrifying to see so many on Hacker news denouncing free speech and calling for its demise.

It's not like democracies last forever but I didn't think I'd be alive to watch the point at which people began to reject it.

Re:Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits wor... by meko on Sunday April 28, 2019 @03:47PM (#19773261)
Have yet to find a single defense for free speech that wasn't a 'slippery slope' fallacy at it's core.