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Re:Slack S-1 by robhunter on Friday April 26, 2019 @10:58AM (#19758181)
I think historical accounting practices and standards are not great at evaluating SaaS businesses.

We came up with the concept of depreciation/amortization as a way to better match up expenses with revenues in a given time frame.

I think we need a similar mechanism for allocating sales & marketing costs.

My company spends about $1,000/year on Slack. We likely will in perpetuity, as long as we/Slack exists.

Slack spent marketing/CAC dollars on us all the way back in 2014 to acquire our LTV stream of cash flows.

If you "depreciated" Slack's sales and marketing costs ($104M, $140M, $223M) over the LTV of the average customer, they would show massive profitability already, and even greater profitability in the future.

We do this already with depreciation - why not with sales and marketing for recurring revenue software companies?

Re:Slack S-1 by floatrock on Friday April 26, 2019 @02:42PM (#19760628)
> If you "depreciated" Slack's sales and marketing costs over the LTV of the average customer...

This is starting to sound very similar to mark-to-market accounting, and the one word associated with "mark-to-market" is "Enron".

From http://www.creditpulse.com/accountingfinance/lessons-enron/e...

> Basically, mark-to-market is a type of accounting that enables a company to book the value of an asset or a liability, not based on the cost of that asset, but based on current market valuations or perceived changes in market valuations.

What got Enron started down the path to ruin is the SEC granted them a waiver where they could start pricing their projects by their perceived value. Problem was, the perceived value was anything that Enron said it was. So that let Enron inflate their holdings, which gave them access to more capital, which let them keep on inflating their holdings until the whole thing came crashing down.

Of course, the asset values weren't just what Enron said they were. They had auditors backing up their claims. One of the Big 5 financial auditors. And as a result, Arthur Anderson also went down in flames along with Enron.

So, in your case, who decides what the LTV of customer cash flows is? The Enron lesson is let speculators use their hunches to guess the future, but keep that speculation out of the official accounting documents.

Re:Slack S-1 by austenallred on Friday April 26, 2019 @08:28PM (#19762938)
> This is starting to sound very similar to mark-to-market accounting, and the one word associated with "mark-to-market" is "Enron".

From Wikipedia:

Mark-to-market (MTM or M2M) or fair value accounting refers to accounting for the "fair value" of an asset or liability based on the current market price, or the price for similar assets and liabilities, or based on another objectively assessed "fair" value.[1] Fair value accounting has been a part of Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP) in the United States since the early 1990s, and is now regarded as the "gold standard" in some circles.

Re:Slack S-1 by Danieru on Saturday April 27, 2019 @01:14AM (#19763923)
What you are describing is Mark to Model not Mark to Market. Mark to Market is what banks use and has little room for cheating. Mark to Model was banned after Enron.
Re:Slack S-1 by robhunter on Friday April 26, 2019 @02:46PM (#19760655)
Well, just like there are objective levels of depreciation for certain classes of assets (property vs. equipment), perhaps there could be similar levels of depreciation allowable for sales & marketing costs based on historic customer churn?
Re:Slack S-1 by fjp on Friday April 26, 2019 @03:21PM (#19760939)
The property and equipment depreciation rates are codified in US tax law.
Re:Slack S-1 by a13n on Friday April 26, 2019 @05:15PM (#19761801)
LTV isn't some fluffy made up number, it's the output of a formula
Re:Slack S-1 by defen on Friday April 26, 2019 @10:45PM (#19763439)
But you don't actually know that a customer will remain a customer forever, whereas you do know that a truck will be worth 15% of its present value in 10 years.
Re:Slack S-1 by jsmeaton on Friday April 26, 2019 @11:52PM (#19763671)
Averaged out across all customers you kind of do though. You know the rate coming in and the rate leaving.
Re:Slack S-1 by bakenator on Friday April 26, 2019 @11:18AM (#19758389)
I think this highlights the distinction between book value and market value. GAAP accounting pretty much tries to value the net value of the company based on the holdings/liabilities that it is legally entitled to at that second. Because a Slack customer can stop paying at any time, it would be wrong to say Slack already had that money in the bank.

However the idea you point out is why on the stock market people value companies completely differently than their book value. It would be pretty interesting if there was a standardized balance sheet like document that could be made with projected value.

Re:Slack S-1 by robhunter on Friday April 26, 2019 @11:23AM (#19758464)
I think a lot of it is historically tied to taxation.

By not depreciating sales and marketing, Slack can claim all of that expense upfront, and delay tax payments since they show a greater loss.

Re:Slack S-1 by Naga on Friday April 26, 2019 @11:37AM (#19758610)
I don't think that Slack's business model is that different from other companies, from a marketing perspective. Sure, they acquired you as a customer in 2014 and don't need to spend anymore on marketing, but other companies spend huge amounts for marketing in the first few years and then spend less over time (think: you picked a detergent brand and keep using it without further marketing, for example). I actually think it is appropriate to recognize the expense now (or in whatever year it occurred), as there is no way to measure what benefit they are getting now from it. Isn't Slack burning now so it won't have to later? If that is true, does that sound like an unprofitable business?

That being said, specific marketing costs already are amortized over the life of contracts - if you pay commissions to sales staff, those are allocated over the life of the contracts that are signed. If you pay inducements (such as free months of service, or whatever), those are amortized over the life of the contract. However, general marketing expenses like ads are recognized in the period that they occur. There are a number of reasons for this: maybe adtech can decide who saw what ad and made a purchase because of it, but that is generally hard to tell. The other is that how do you know what the life of the contract will be. Your company pays $1000/year for Slack, and you likely will, but what if something changes? Slack can't know what you're planning to do. They'd have to make an estimate, and estimates are open to manipulation by management.

Management's incentive is to decrease expenses in the current year to make themselves look better to investors, so they're going to say that their expenses will be good for 20 years. How can they be certain? There's also the other way they can manipulate it by saying that "oh, this was a bad year already, we might as well recognize marketing expenses now to make a bad year worse, so next year looks better". Since there's no actual measurement basis, there's no corroborating evidence either way.

Source: am an auditor, albeit not familiar with US GAAP.

Re:Slack S-1 by huac on Friday April 26, 2019 @12:58PM (#19759568)
i don't have a subscription to laundry detergent, nothing stops me from buying a different brand in 6 months, whereas slack has contracts with my company, and has switching costs (we'd lose our message history).
Re:Slack S-1 by omarchowdhury on Friday April 26, 2019 @01:59PM (#19760201)
> (we'd lose our message history).

You can't export your data from Slack?

Re:Slack S-1 by markolschesky on Friday April 26, 2019 @03:39PM (#19761090)
It's rough. We thought about switching to Microsoft Teams and we realized that so many decisions about our relatively young company were tucked in DMs and private channels in Slack that we couldn't leave.

Email is non-sticky (just take your emails/save them on client and leave) Files storage is non-sticky (just move your files from OneDrive to GDrive) Chat/Collaboration is sticky as mud.

Re:Slack S-1 by derp_dee_derp on Friday April 26, 2019 @06:04PM (#19762156)
This sounds more like a problem with your young companies processes, not a problem with slack or email.

Maybe you should think about a formal method of documenting important decisions for your company instead of relying on a chat log.

"Hey, I just purchased 20k of widgets"

"What? Why?! We can't afford that! We decided to discontinue those widgets month ago! Didn't you scroll through the chat logs before making that purchase order??!"

Good luck.

Re:Slack S-1 by rubidium on Friday April 26, 2019 @04:07PM (#19761316)
Chat only is if you’ve chosen slack or some other proprietary format.
Re:Slack S-1 by rlonstein on Friday April 26, 2019 @02:58PM (#19760762)
> You can't export your data from Slack?

You can. Nicely it can be had as json. But it's really only half useful since there are links and attachments that point within Slack itself and that content is not captured in the export without additional processing.

Re:Slack S-1 by robhunter on Friday April 26, 2019 @12:57PM (#19759549)
Well, I think it relates to historical churn though - B2C churn in general is significantly higher than B2B (see Blue Apron). The switching costs on detergent brands are essentially 0. For us to switch from Slack now would be a fairly major headache.
Re:Slack S-1 by ummonk on Friday April 26, 2019 @11:56AM (#19758859)
Not sure what you mean. LTV/CAC is a common metric in SaaS for sales efficiency.
Re:Slack S-1 by robhunter on Friday April 26, 2019 @12:57PM (#19759556)
Obviously, but do you see that anywhere in their S-1? Or in all of the comments on here referencing that they are unprofitable?
Re:Slack S-1 by azernik on Friday April 26, 2019 @03:32PM (#19761037)
Agreed that these are the right metrics, but they're not used in the S-1 and are unfamiliar to non-SaaS-proficient investors.
Re:Slack S-1 by Wump on Friday April 26, 2019 @08:27PM (#19762932)
It seems like this is captured with plain old LTV - CAC. What’s the advantage of introducing “depreciation” here?
Re:Slack S-1 by nine_k on Friday April 26, 2019 @09:27PM (#19763164)
I can't help but note how inexpensive is that: less than $3/day.

If your company serves free coffee, operating the coffee machine likely costs more.

There's no financial incentive to leave Slack at this price point.

Re:Slack S-1 by paulcole on Friday April 26, 2019 @01:08PM (#19759642)
> My company spends about $1,000/year on Slack. We likely will in perpetuity, as long as we/Slack exists.

What was your company using before Slack and what did it cost?

Re:Slack S-1 by robhunter on Friday April 26, 2019 @02:47PM (#19760664)
Nothing - we started the company in 2014 and began using Slack. Were much closer to ~$200/year when we started.
Re:Slack S-1 by scarface74 on Friday April 26, 2019 @08:53PM (#19763036)
Because all the GAAP numbers in the world don’t mean anything if a company can’t bring in more cash than it is spending.
Re:Slack S-1 by notfromhere on Friday April 26, 2019 @11:40AM (#19758661)
Not really. SaaS isn't immune to gravity, the difference is that investors are willing to dump infinite amounts of cash into unprofitable SaaS businesses hoping that eventually they dominate their market and become a monopoly/oligopoly