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Re:Is everything an MLM by grawprog on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:14PM (#19712752)
Almost every job i've worked outside of tech is pretty much some non essential service or product. Right now I turn mountains into countertops and fireplaces using large, expensive machines so rich people can have stone inside their homes. I provide nothing that is essential, yet every day customers spend tens of thousands of dollars and my spends thousands so rich people can have nice shiny stone inside their homes.

In order to get this stone, they literally dismantle mountains one block at a time, slice them into slabs and ship them all over the world. Again, all so rich people can have nice shiny stone in their kitchens.

Re:Is everything an MLM by neilv on Sunday April 21, 2019 @01:18PM (#19713203)
That sounds like very honest and value-providing work.

And, though non-essential (down there on a hierarchy of needs), beauty is important to human lives.

Re:Is everything an MLM by sverige on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:40PM (#19712951)
Why aren't you arguing directly that we should all live in soviet-style housing blocks? Concrete is good enough, right? Then we'd all be equal.
Re:Is everything an MLM by grawprog on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:52PM (#19713033)
I'm not saying they're wrong to have them. I'm pointing out spending $20,000 on some piece of stone for you to prepare your food on is fairly non-essential.

Though again, they remove mountains for this, the shop produces a bunch of toxic, fish killing dust and sediment every day that's slowly killing me and my coworkers and destroying the planet.

But my main point was, the things I create every day are not essential. They are luxury items. Many of the other jobs i've had were also along the same line.

Not that they don't make people happy or improve their lives I suppose,(though the people that got soapstone in their kitchen recently are in for a some trouble the first time they drop something on it or spill something acidic on it.) But, in the end, it's definitely not essential and detrimental to the world as a whole in many ways.

Re:Is everything an MLM by robocat on Sunday April 21, 2019 @04:13PM (#19714288)
> But my main point was, the things I create every day are not essential

A country that only produces essential items (food, shelter) for its population is a very poor country.

Almost by definition, a wealthy country predominantly produces and consumes non-essential goods and services.

It gets really difficult to argue which non-essential goods are worthwhile. Is the art on the wall worth more than the stone lintel? Is it good art? Is it a second hand lintel?

Re:Is everything an MLM by sverige on Sunday April 21, 2019 @01:01PM (#19713093)
I understand, but from that perspective, pretty much everything in "developed" countries is non-essential, including personal computers (whether desktop, laptop, smartphone, or tablet) and forums like this one to discuss such things. Think of the toxic waste created by all those computers, and the greenhouse gases created by shipping them all over the place! And to what end?
Re:Is everything an MLM by grawprog on Sunday April 21, 2019 @01:25PM (#19713248)
Yeah you're right. I think that's the point the gp comment was making originally. It's not just developed countries either. There are massive industries supporting millions of people that are non-essential. The problem is many of them actually do provide a large increase to quality of life. The improvement granite counters make is questionable, things like computers, phones, vehicles and other large scale damaging things, while not necessarily essential, do bring a dramatic improvement to quality of life and paradoxically enough allow people to make money providing.what is likely another non-essential service or product.

It's always been like this though. In the end, there's no reason for humans to have ever made most of the things we have over the millenia other than because we can and did. Once we had food and shelter and all these things pretty much taken care of, everythong else after was pretty much just for the fuck of it and we've always been at odds with the world and destroyed and altered our environments. The scale has just kept increasing to the point where there are massive global industries devoted to this.

At the same time, humanity still follows our basic survival insticts. We still have that inner subconcious mentality of scarcity when it comes to essentials. So it ends up being treated the same way in our economy as luxury goods and you end up in this situation where people are trading non-essential things for essential things.

Re:Is everything an MLM by philipkglass on Sunday April 21, 2019 @01:20PM (#19713216)
If you were supplying things that less affluent people can afford, you might have different but equally strong regrets about the unsustainable ways that business operates. For what it's worth, the full life cycle environmental impact of cheap plastic laminate counters is likely worse than that of polished natural stone.
Re:Is everything an MLM by grawprog on Sunday April 21, 2019 @01:58PM (#19713470)
Yeah probably. I mean pretty much any manufacturing is really at odds with the ecological restoration and ecosystem management degrees I have. I've come to reconcile this dissonance as the non-essential, environment destroying job pays enough money for me to live and have these non-essential things, while trying to help the planet did not. So...there's that. Turns out it's really difficult to live on sparse couple month contracts that are paid with grant money that typically only occur during spring-fall.
Re:Is everything an MLM by petra on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:56PM (#19713056)
soviet-style housing is a bit extreme.

But what's wrong with being equal ?

Re:Is everything an MLM by rjf72 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @04:25PM (#19714351)
Imagine you take a million humans and you give them a million absolutely identical plots of lands. And each plot of land is, with work, capable of fully sustaining its owner. And you also gave each and every one of them all of the initial tools, training, and resources they'd need to achieve this. And we're also going to assume that these individuals will never experience any health issues or random catastrophes such as weather events, to minimize randomness in our little real life simulation.

And now we set these people free to live as they will. How long will the complete equality last? It'd more likely be a matter of months than years. Some would work harder and produce more enabling them to grow in resources which could then be traded for other things - giving them more than others. Others would go in the opposite direction and behave irresponsibly, such as by indulgence in drink or drug, and find themselves falling further behind. Others would make decisions such as having more children than they could afford to provide for and find themselves in severe issues. Others would simply make better or more astute decisions in general leading them to pull ahead.

It wouldn't take long before our entirely equal society was riddled with inequity. The point of this is that it's impossible for humans to be equal unless somebody enforces that equality. And this brings up two issues. The first is that the enforcer of equality is generally a group or organization that is going to be inherently unequal. Even a completely social system would require 'enforcers' of some sort lest the over achievers dare keep the fruits of their labor for themselves. The second is that you end up with radically warped reward scenarios. If you do better than average, you get stuff taken from you. If you do worse than average, you get stuff given to you. Failure is rewarded, success is punished.

These distorted systems of motivation and the inherent control required to maintain equality are the very fundamental reason that the numerous systems of equality we've tried have all invariably ended up the same. Human society only functions by people spending a pretty good deal of their time doing x when they'd rather be doing y. It's not hard to see what happens when you remove any motivation whatsoever to actually do x. It even explains the ever recurring trend towards authoritarianism and cruel behavior - it's simply an effort to try to force people to do x after you remove all their motivation to do so, and it just doesn't work.

Re:Is everything an MLM by sverige on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:59PM (#19713081)
So far, all of the experiments to make everyone equal have resulted in soviet-style housing for the many and well-appointed dachas for the few -- and that's at best. I'm doubtful that future experiments will have a different result.
Re:Is everything an MLM by petra on Sunday April 21, 2019 @01:15PM (#19713187)
Maybe.

In countries with socialized medicine, access to healthcare services is usually more equal than countries without socialized medicine.

So if some equality can be created in such an important choice, maybe it could be achieved in the less important choice of counter tops, if someone we're to bother.

Re:Is everything an MLM by tomp on Sunday April 21, 2019 @08:36PM (#19715494)
Why would "equal" matter though? E.g. if noone has access to medicine (probably some African countries), they're all "equal". But... The point is, "equal" is just a buzzword that needs to be deconstructed and analysed in each specific scenario. In medicine in particular, extremes are usually bad (completely private => expensive, completely public => inefficient), and middle ground (public & private) seems to be decent.
Re:Is everything an MLM by petra on Monday April 22, 2019 @02:55PM (#19721703)
People living in equal societies are happier, and less stressed. Maybe it's because differences in status translate to differences in the natural anti-depressant chemical, Serotonin.
Re:Is everything an MLM by htmk on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @06:09AM (#19727066)
No reason to force everyone to be equal, just create your equality paradise and open the doors to the world.
Re:Is everything an MLM by pbhjpbhj on Sunday April 21, 2019 @01:40PM (#19713361)
Kibbutz are pretty egalitarian. The New Testament describes the early Christians as living with everything in common ownership. Not every attempt to be equally valued has resulted in the disparities you suggest. The problem is top-down vs bottom-up ... eg https://www.quora.com/How-did-Karl-Marx-define-socialism/ans... .

Genuine question, which bits of the Soviet projects were targetting making everyone equal -- all I've seen are the bits where a dictator rides the coattails of communist ideology to subdue the people. I'm still learning about this part of history, so am keen to understand which bits were started "properly" from a communist perspective. It strikes me that in all cases a portion of society wanted to impose communism, those who didn't want to give up their supremacy (of power or wealth) perverted that system.

As (IIRC) Galbraith says (paraphrase?) "in Capitalism man exploits man, in Communism it's the other way around". The thing is that communism at least seeks to gain equality, capitalism seeks to exploit others up to the legal limits imposed.

Re:Is everything an MLM by varjag on Sunday April 21, 2019 @02:27PM (#19713655)
> which bits of the Soviet projects were targetting making everyone equal

Private property of means of production and accumulation of capital were outlawed. It was the best attempt to follow Marx tenets.

> It strikes me that in all cases a portion of society wanted to impose communism, those who didn't want to give up their supremacy (of power or wealth) perverted that system.

No. The latter were massacred in 1918. Then the remaining ones executed and sent each other to GuLAGs in several waves. Separation of wealth (even if minuscule on the scale of developed capitalism) appears to be an emergent property.

Re:Is everything an MLM by secabeen on Sunday April 21, 2019 @03:37PM (#19714075)
That mainly seems to happen at the large scale. At the small, community scale, there are plenty of examples of communal societies with many decades of history that continue as an ongoing concern. For example, the Bruderhof's in New York and Pennsylvania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruderhof_Communities
Re:Is everything an MLM by icxa on Sunday April 21, 2019 @03:50PM (#19714151)
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
Re:Is everything an MLM by sjg007 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @08:23PM (#19715436)
I mean, the alternative is that they take trees or they take oil.. I guess ceramic is probably the most environmentally friendly option unless the wood is harvested sustainably.