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Re:Is everything an MLM by cheerlessbog on Sunday April 21, 2019 @11:43AM (#19712586)
Often the choices made by "the individual" don't account for externalities that aren't built into the price. Viz landfills, climate change, effect on those with less economic resources.
Re:Is everything an MLM by AnthonyMouse on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:10PM (#19712724)
In principle the market has answers for these.

Landfills are a problem because they're subsidized, because we'd rather provide free/cheap garbage pickup than have people throwing their trash in the street or the ocean. The alternative would be to not subsidize it and then penalize throwing trash on someone else's property with 500 hours of picking up trash. Then there isn't trash in the streets because either people don't put it there or there are plenty of people to pick it back up, and trash collection service costs enough that the plastic junk your plastic junk comes in makes it cost more than the alternative that produces less garbage.

Climate change is the same thing. You're releasing CO2 into somebody else's property, which should require their permission. Good luck getting permission from literally everyone in the entire world; might be easier to buy an electric car.

These problems were created by making concessions from the principle that interactions should be voluntary. If you're creating an externality then whoever is paying for that externality should have to agree to it before you can do it, and they're not going to agree to that without being appropriately compensated.

Re:Is everything an MLM by seibelj on Sunday April 21, 2019 @11:54AM (#19712642)
Are you suggesting it's better to ban individual choice because of the existence of landfills and climate change? The market could effectively and efficiently price those into products, if society would pass a law.
Re:Is everything an MLM by gcb0 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @01:09PM (#19713134)
yes. ands this already happens everywhere around you.

you can't import cars from one place to another, because of emissions. you do not have the rigth to roam on most of the world like you have still in some very select places (e.g. scotland), because of property rights and national security. You can't market any food becuase of public health. Etc.

so your capricious question is already done and answered for. individual choice is already banned in many aspects. and you are still choosing to not see it. including in your arguments for buying a smart fridge. you never had the choice either way.

Re:Is everything an MLM by AlexCoventry on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:02PM (#19712687)
No, only to reduce individual choice when it's clearly pushing away from significantly better global optima than individual choice can achieve.
Re:Is everything an MLM by Drakim on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:25PM (#19712845)
For example, while an individual might benefit from stealing, but hurts overall more than it helps, so we try to block that individual choice despite the fact that we might be hurting somebody who is really good at stealing.
Re:Is everything an MLM by cheerlessbog on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:02PM (#19712684)
No. Did I say that? I like living in a predominantly capitalist society. I would like us to pay more attention to the consequences of consumption. One way to do that is to build it into prices (such as a carbon tax, or upstreaming disposal cost) or by regulation. Building cost into price is actually a very capitalist and arguably libertarian approach as it enables the market to reallocate resources to minimize what would otherwise be an externality.
Re:Is everything an MLM by zdragnar on Sunday April 21, 2019 @02:25PM (#19713643)
Disposal already costs; either you pay directly, through taxes if your local municipality organizes it, or your rent if your property owner organizes it.

The cost of disposal varies by where it is disposed, not where it is purchased or made. It makes no sense to add an arbitrary cost to a product when the receiver of that money is not the one dealing with the externality in the first place.

The same goes for carbon emissions; a properly managed landfill that captures released methane is in fact a method of carbon sequestration. Adding a carbon tax would merely create a new slush fund or dump into an existing one.

Re:Is everything an MLM by teucris on Sunday April 21, 2019 @03:13PM (#19713931)
Except that disposal costs are highly distorted - depending on where you are, it’s much cheaper than it should be because of cheap land for landfills, cheap shipping to shift the problem away, etc.

Proposals to add cost to disposal are meant to correct for these distortions - to really represent the collective cost to the world. This absolutely should not be done arbitrarily - massive, ongoing research should be done to ensure its correcting for these distortions appropriately. Rinse and repeat for fossil fuels.

BTW, a methane-capturing landfill is, at best, carbon neutral, not sequestering.

Re:Is everything an MLM by ehmish on Sunday April 21, 2019 @05:03PM (#19714569)
Depends what you burying, if it's paper and food waste, it is sequestering. Paper and food contain carbon pulled from the atmosphere, and by preventing it from decomposing by excluding oxygen (e.g most landfills) you get carbon sequestration
Re:Is everything an MLM by teucris on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:01PM (#19714843)
That causes anerobic composting which turns the carbon into methane. This is either recaptured and burned or goes into the atmosphere.
Re:Is everything an MLM by zdragnar on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:09PM (#19714888)
Only small amounts of the carbon are converted to methane... enough that capture is worthwhile, but there is certainly a significant portion remaining below ground.
Re:Is everything an MLM by teucris on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:19PM (#19714931)
I get the idea but I had learned it wasn’t an effective sequestration method. Do you have references I can check out?
Re:Is everything an MLM by zdragnar on Sunday April 21, 2019 @05:42PM (#19714737)
My point was that the added cost should be reflected in the collection of waste, not the point of sale, because there aren't any externalities yet, and so there isn't anything to calculate.

As for landfills being cheap, that isn't a bad thing. That means the externalities at those sites are low. I live near an old one that was turned into a 50 acre prairie restoration space with about 2 miles of walking paths and full of wildlife. As others pointed out, burying carbon does sequester it. Methane capture merely prevents it from getting back out when it is nutrient and water dense (aka food waste).

Re:Is everything an MLM by teucris on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:16PM (#19714918)
1. There are tons of externalities at point of sale. Was the item produced using water from a common source like a river? How were non-solid waste products disposed? When it’s source materials were extracted, what impact did that have on the extraction site? Not even counting the fossil fuels needed to make the item...

2. Assuming that certain places have lower externalities doesn’t make sense. Aside from the global footprint of trash in general, there have been tons of rehabilitated sites but they will need maintenance and monitoring for hundreds years.

Re:Is everything an MLM by grive on Monday April 22, 2019 @05:59AM (#19717664)
Producing value has no externalities? That's new!

> As for landfills being cheap, that isn't a bad thing. That means the externalities at those sites are low.

No, that means that most of the actual price is not accounted for and is dumped on the public instead.

Re:Is everything an MLM by seibelj on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:17PM (#19712773)
Great, so we are in agreement. I was confused because:

> Often the choices made by "the individual" don't account for externalities that aren't built into the price...

You put "the individual" in quotes as if to critique some sort of free-market system based on individuals, and I wanted to emphasize that the system we have can solve those problems.

Re:Is everything an MLM by cheerlessbog on Sunday April 21, 2019 @01:41PM (#19713373)
Ah I see - that wasn't my intent.
Re:Is everything an MLM by ericd on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:17PM (#19712769)
So you're not disagreeing with the parent. Yes, a carbon tax would be the way to account for that externality while maintaining individual choice.
Re:Is everything an MLM by cheerlessbog on Sunday April 21, 2019 @01:40PM (#19713366)
That part yes, but not this, "Are you suggesting it's better to ban individual choice ...". That's not a fair characterization.
Re:Is everything an MLM by ericd on Sunday April 21, 2019 @04:57PM (#19714535)
Ah I see, looks like you guys cleared it up/agreed in a sibling post.