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Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by rwmj on Saturday April 20, 2019 @02:14AM (#19705070)
Exactly! Own shares instead, they're the same thing but require none of this ongoing work.

Historically house prices have risen enormously and a whole lot of people have made money, so everyone believes this will continue forever despite a huge political movement behind building more houses and other (good) policies that will reduce prices. On the linked page I typed in "-20%" into the annual appreciation field and lost $717,000.

Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by tonyedgecombe on Saturday April 20, 2019 @06:12AM (#19705701)
The big difference (or it is in the UK) is rental properties are heavily leveraged, often on interest only loans. Many of these landlords don't have enough cash to invest in the stock market but they can borrow against a rental property.
Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by retiredcoder on Saturday April 20, 2019 @08:18AM (#19706138)
Can’t they borrow on margin in the UK? Maybe also risky (or riskier) than an interest only loan?
Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by rwmj on Saturday April 20, 2019 @08:52AM (#19706268)
I'm fairly sure that ordinary investors can't borrow for investment in the UK, or at least if they can it's not as easy as getting a mortgage. Getting a mortgage is a mountain of paperwork but for most people it isn't difficult even with the new rules.

Interestingly though 30% of people buying houses now in the UK are not getting mortgages (in some areas much more than that [1]) and I assume most of these will be the types of investors who are looking to buy a second home to rent out.

[1] https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-63...

Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by retiredcoder on Saturday April 20, 2019 @08:59AM (#19706295)
That is something different than USA. There even my laundry guy was day trading with margin, believe me or not.
Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by repsilat on Saturday April 20, 2019 @09:47AM (#19706504)
Mortgage rates are substantially lower than margin lending rates though.

Borrowing to buy a house at 4.5% you might think, "Not much risk, will likely appreciate faster." Borrowing to buy stocks at 10% and you're almost certainly not going to come out ahead.

(Maybe my broker has terrible rates, others could be more reasonable.)

Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by cosmoharrigan on Saturday April 20, 2019 @11:04AM (#19706878)
IB margin rates are currently 3.92%, for example: https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=1595
Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by repsilat on Saturday April 20, 2019 @11:44AM (#19707126)
Wow, I'll have to consider changing. I'd probably borrow to invest at those rates, after running a model to figure out how much risk to take.

Though maybe LEAPS (and for indexes, futures) are a still cheaper way to get leverage.

Edit: goodness, the rates on some of those currencies is less than the dividend yield of those countries' indexes... If I don't expect New Zealand to sink into the sea, is it stupid not to borrow NZD and invest in the NZ top 50?

Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by retiredcoder on Saturday April 20, 2019 @12:29PM (#19707398)
Crazy, huh? Capital cost are all time low.

IIRC, last time I looked at margin out of curiosity with my brokerage firm (schwabs/2014), I also remember to be around 10%.

I can’t help but think we are living in a unattainable economic environment...

Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by retiredcoder on Saturday April 20, 2019 @12:24PM (#19707373)
I’d guess from the 4.5%, you are in the USA? Just asking to check we share the same context here, no need to answer..

My subjetive experience in the USA (Seattle and NYC) is that you can get 4-5% with a steady job and 20% down for primary residence. Anything out of ordinary, like 2nd mortgage (since we are talking about real state as investment), the interest rate goes up (6-7% last time I applied for one).

Also, while the margin rates can be higher, there is more liquidity, smaller transaction costs, and much smaller fees.

Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by repsilat on Saturday April 20, 2019 @01:18PM (#19707654)
Yeah, in the US at the moment.

Transaction costs are a big one. In some countries there's stamp duty, in the US there are unusually high closing costs (6%?). That said, the bigger the investment the longer I want to hold it, and those transaction fees aren't as steep when amortised over the home-onwership term.

Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by tonyedgecombe on Saturday April 20, 2019 @01:54PM (#19707852)
I suspect most of those cash buyers are retirees downsizing or moving away from London.
Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by xixixao on Saturday April 20, 2019 @06:33AM (#19705762)
One thing that keeps me confident (even worried) about house prices: We have now got used to not demolishing old houses. This is a BIG problem. Look at London. Yes it has a mud base layer, but we can manage nowadays. Yet the whole city is still mostly 2 storied houses. And it's growing out like crazy. I don't see how this trend will revert, in any "beautiful" European city. The only way prices would go down is if we had a popultion decrease. Immigration will not let that happen.
Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by benj111 on Saturday April 20, 2019 @03:39AM (#19705301)
"Historically..... so everyone believes this will continue forever"

You know the same thing applies to stocks and shares. And in fact stocks and shares have risen more historically [1]

Shares also have liquidity, you can easily sell them in part or whole. You can diversify. One incident could easily destroy a house, if it destroys your well diversified stock investments you've probably got other problems.

So agreed the stock market is the better investment, but as we can't see the future, both are based on past performance. Yes there are headwinds, there always are, I can think of many many reasons why stocks could fall, that doesn't really change what has happened historically though.

Of course the beauty of investing is that if you disagree you can put your money where your mouth is :)

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/052015/which-has-pe...

Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by chii on Saturday April 20, 2019 @04:31AM (#19705426)
> the stock market is the better investment

buying a house to live is not an investment, and i should think that people ought not to treat it as such. Buying a house gives you stability and security for shelter. It's quite possible that renting is cheaper, but you also can't do certain things while renting - such as small renovations (some places don't even let you nail a painting on to the wall).

Investments in real estate is a different ballgame to buying your home.

Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by kgwgk on Saturday April 20, 2019 @04:52AM (#19705482)
The discussion is on the question “Should you buy a house and rent it out?”
Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by lizknope on Saturday April 20, 2019 @07:46AM (#19706011)
I bought my house for $263K in 2002. It is currently worth around $330K. In that time I have spent about $40K on repairs (not true upgrades) for 2 new HVAC units, new roof, carpet, water damage, broken appliances, wood rot, lawn seed/fertilizer.

I'm happier living in a house than an apartment but my house is a place to live, and an item of value, but not an investment I expect to make profit from.

Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by e12e on Saturday April 20, 2019 @07:55AM (#19706043)
That sounds odd - a 10% increase in (invested) value over 16 years? Isn't that below inflation?

(according to random site on the internet, it's a little below inflation: https://www.in2013dollars.com/2002-dollars-in-2018?amount=30... )

Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by sokoloff on Saturday April 20, 2019 @08:32AM (#19706189)
You can't reasonably count things like lawn maintenance, carpet, water damage, wood rot, and broken appliances as part of the investment...
Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by _ah on Saturday April 20, 2019 @12:15PM (#19707306)
Sure you can. If you were renting it out instead of living in it, all those costs would have to be paid on behalf of the tennents. It's part of the cost of doing business. So whether you rent or buy for yourself, it's all part of the investment calculation.
Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by sokoloff on Saturday April 20, 2019 @12:46PM (#19707500)
It’s part of the natural expenses of owning a house, but is not relevant to an anticipated inflation-based increase in value of the underlying asset.
Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by benj111 on Saturday April 20, 2019 @04:54AM (#19705487)
I thought we were talking about rental properties?

That said, buying a house is basically buying an index linked annuity that covers your rent on a property you have to maintain. So it is an investment, albeit one tied up with a lot of other baggage.

Re:Show HN: Should you buy a house and rent it out? by z3t4 on Saturday April 20, 2019 @03:51AM (#19705332)
Just make sure you only invest using money you can spare. If you are saving use funds (many different stock to spread the risk) . If you invest in a single house , stock or boat, there's always a chance it will sink and you lose it all.