News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by userbinator on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @11:34PM (#19688509)
I've long become aware of the fact that everything promoted with the adjective "smart" is usually somehow dystopian, because it usually acts in the interest of someone else. In other words, we should really have more things which are "dumb" enough that we can control them, not things which are so "smart" that we can't.
Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by buro9 on Thursday April 18, 2019 @05:20AM (#19689771)
For me it's the difference between connected smart and autonomously smart.

An example might be something like Google Glass and how augmented reality is being considered as a product offering. All of the scenarios are along the lines of "And you will be able to spot your Uber from a distance whilst getting discreet notifications from your contacts" which are inherently all connected services, offering data enrichment to third parties with a side effect of some convenience to you.

Compared to an augmented reality story that if it were fully autonomous and independent would require an abundance of sensors and near real-time processing such that it could do things like edge highlight for the sight impaired, colour correction for those impairments, or as enhancements of human capabilities like being able to see in parts of the spectrum not visible to the human eye.

The obsession with connected and data is leading to the Futurama episode where they connect to the internet and fight through adverts and it is firmly dystopian, whereas autonomy could lead us towards Geordi La Forge's visor.

And I'm already thinking how in the UK the Hive API went down a few weeks ago and resulted in no-one being able to adjust their thermostat.

Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by duxup on Thursday April 18, 2019 @10:06AM (#19691074)
I think in the same line of logic we have to recognize that maybe we can do without some smart things, and we should seriously evaluate / question if they really provide much actual value. It can seem like there is value there, but the end result might be far different than we think.

In Minnesota red light cameras and such automated ticketing systems were determined to be illegal (for the state):

https://www.thenewspaper.com/news/16/1688.asp

The result? Minnesota isn't experiencing some sort of Mad Max like traffic apocalypses, things seem pretty normal and I don't know of any dramatic disparity between places that use such cameras and those who do not. Meanwhile corruption and other issues cloud the traffic camera world... it's a product that arguably encourages / benefits bad actors, and possibly nobody else despite what we might otherwise think it does.

Sometimes despite what we might want, we just don't need smart stuff and using it just allows for bad actors and little else. There's lots of talk about home smart speakers but then on HN we see all sorts of discussions of people who bought them and admit, they really don't get a great deal of utility from them... so perhaps we've just paid for a product that actually provides google or amazon more utility than we ever get...

As Frank Herbert said:

“Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.”

In Dune the result was that mankind eventually did away with "thinking machines" as it was clear the risk was greater than the reward.

Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by dsfyu404ed on Thursday April 18, 2019 @10:28AM (#19691237)
>In Minnesota red light cameras and such automated ticketing systems were determined to be illegal (for the state):

>The result? Minnesota isn't experiencing some sort of Mad Max like traffic apocalypses, things seem pretty normal and I don't know of any dramatic disparity between places that use such cameras and those who do not. Meanwhile corruption and other issues cloud the traffic camera world... it's a product that arguably encourages / benefits bad actors, and possibly nobody else despite what we might otherwise think it does.

There are so many areas of law and law enforcement that are like this. Turns out if you just let people do whatever most people will do what society considers reasonable because at scale what people do determines what society considers reasonable.

Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by bepvte on Thursday April 18, 2019 @11:48AM (#19691970)
Don't want to get into a political debate, but this is a lot of the principles of modern anarchism (sometimes called "AnCom"). I am unsure of the feasability of such a society, but it is interesting to read about theories and ideas if anyone wants to learn more.
Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by duxup on Thursday April 18, 2019 @11:02AM (#19691491)
The history of law enforcement certainly seems to be a long line of misguided actions with results we might not expect / incentives that are not good.
Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by Aloha on Thursday April 18, 2019 @10:55AM (#19691446)
> There are so many areas of law and law enforcement that are like this. Turns out if you just let people do whatever most people will do what society considers reasonable because at scale what people do determines what society considers reasonable.

This is part of the core argument for libertarianism - and has been my experience in life. Generally every time I head someone should "there ought to be a law against that" there probably shouldn't be one without considerable thought on the matter.

Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by siruncledrew on Thursday April 18, 2019 @02:02PM (#19693239)
> and we should seriously evaluate / question if they really provide much actual value. It can seem like there is value there, but the end result might be far different than we think.

Also, who is getting the value. With many public-private "partnerships" like this, it doesn't seem like the general public is getting value out of it; rather, it's the parties involved in making the business deal. The government can be wined-and-dined with sales pitches, and then pat themselves on the back for "making the public safer". The companies get a lucrative deal from the government.

Smart things, like these cameras, gives the companies that operate them a blackbox to work with that impacts the public but is not accessible to the public. So now, a company that has a vested interest in themselves, has the government go-ahead to cast a net to make money from the public. What a great deal, right?

Even if companies and government promise they won't do anything malicious or unjust, how can we actually trust their word when the ability for a company to skew things in their favor is such a low barrier?

If I ask a valet, "You won't joyride my car?", and they say, "No", how much of a guarantee is it that they won't joyride? Maybe they don't do anything obvious that would throw off a red flag, like significantly deplete the fuel or run up the odometer, but they decide to redline the car to hear it VROOM or drag race it in a short stretch of a street. These little 'nothings' add up over time, or at least give the incentives to get bigger and bolder over time if nobody notices.

Who is to say a company with smart things, like these cameras, wouldn't decrease the capture time by a few milliseconds on their highest revenue intersection, or release an "erroneous update" that lowers the red light capture tolerances?

It's better to be less trusting of these "smart" business dealings than to openly invite the possibility for abuse right through the door.

Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by dmix on Thursday April 18, 2019 @12:11PM (#19692188)
I was just sitting at an intersection last night. A fire truck came by with sirens and two vehicles had to move slightly into the lane to get out of the way.

The camera flashed for both of their cars. Nice way to get punished for helping.

Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by nostrademons on Thursday April 18, 2019 @02:20AM (#19689129)
That assumes your interests are non-aligned with the people who create the tech. In most situations where you are voluntarily choosing to pay money for a product, your interests are aligned, because you will stop choosing to pay money if you feel your interests have been harmed.
Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by TeMPOraL on Thursday April 18, 2019 @10:13AM (#19691123)
For some values of voluntary. You need to take into account marketing and other dishonest business practices perverting the transaction, and the fact that the market offers you a pretty binary choice: either accept the benefit with all the garbage, or don't have it at all. The alignment of interests is minimized to be just above the point below which people wouldn't buy.
Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by fouc on Thursday April 18, 2019 @04:44AM (#19689655)
I agree, we should be spending money with companies that have aligned their interests with ours, and refraining from spending money with companies that haven't aligned with our interests.

However, there's a problem with free services. Internet was largely free in the past and now it's still largely free - but now users are the product themselves. Interests are no longer aligned.

Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by rootlocus on Thursday April 18, 2019 @03:36AM (#19689385)
People happily pay premium prices for apple products, and they're interests are clearly not aligned. For instance, apple fights against the right to repair. I think this extends to a lot of companies.
Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by nostrademons on Thursday April 18, 2019 @03:40AM (#19689402)
Apple's consistently fought for privacy, though, and against ads and crapware. That's a good example: because you're paying a premium price for the product, they won't jeopardize those profits through contracts with other parties.

With the right-to-repair, your interests are definitely not aligned - each time you repair an iPhone, that's money you give to someone else that you're not giving to Apple. It's good to be aware of these situations - you'll never avoid all of them - but at least you can predict in which ways companies might try to screw you over and decide if you're okay with that.

The only reliable promise is someone else's self-interest.

Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by NeedMoreTea on Thursday April 18, 2019 @04:44AM (#19689654)
It's never that simple unless you're buying something as simple as potatoes or a hammer.

With an iPhone I may find myself aligned on 5 points, and not aligned on 4, so perhaps I buy as being the least worst available. The iPhone, or other brand, with all 9 things I care about may never have been sold, even though technically and commercially feasible.

In the case of phones, no maker seems to care a jot about right to repair any more. So it's not deciding I'm OK being screwed over that way, but a choice of screwed that way or no phone.

Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by darawk on Thursday April 18, 2019 @04:08AM (#19689522)
The fact that their interests are not perfectly aligned does not mean they are not aligned. Apple is able to fight rights to repair because people love their products so much that they don't care. They have the leverage to be misaligned in one little area, because they are so overwhelmingly aligned everywhere else.
Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by cedivad on Thursday April 18, 2019 @02:53AM (#19689229)
Only problem is, profit margins for hardware are tiny and the company will gladly sell your soul for an extra 1%.
Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by lsh on Thursday April 18, 2019 @02:49AM (#19689211)
"not aligned" or "unaligned"
Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by lsh on Sunday April 21, 2019 @07:48PM (#19715287)
non-English speaking down-voters I see ;)
Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by devoply on Thursday April 18, 2019 @12:05AM (#19688630)
That's the biggest problem of our time in that ownership of tech is being transferred from the user to the corporation in various ways and Google is on the front-line of that... mainly because they built their business on advertising and therefore data mining. That's their forte so everything they do is centered around the objective of data mining. And really Google needs to be slowed down for this reason... and that's only going to happen through government intervention.
Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by wolco on Thursday April 18, 2019 @12:46PM (#19692519)
One new big trend could wipe out there advantage like it did with microsoft.
Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by darkpuma on Thursday April 18, 2019 @12:08PM (#19692144)
Something that's been bugging me, is when did "smart" become an adjective for machines in the first place, and what were the circumstances around this new use of the word? Before "smart phones" and "smart houses" or "smart watches", what devices were termed 'smart'?

As far as I can figure, it started with "smart bomb" in the early 70s. A term which at this point is so normalized we might not think twice about it, but which I suspect of being propaganda. Here is a 1972 NYTs article suggesting that the term is Pentagon propaganda: https://www.nytimes.com/1972/06/26/archives/smart-bombs-and-...

> "To one who has bombed and been bombed, recent Pentagon propaganda about our new “smart” bombs is dumb and repetitious (not to say, indecent)."

Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by siemprenocasa on Thursday April 18, 2019 @04:13PM (#19694371)
"Smart" is about as bullshit as how things are labeled "Green". Anyone could throw those words around as marketing ploys. It's a gimmick.

Of course politicians will be interested in some "smart" solution, because it implies the current way is "dumb", and nobody wants to be "dumb". "Smart" =/= "Better". In various ways, proposed "smart" solutions are actually worse or have new consequences, making them not so smart of decisions in the first place.

This kind of stuff is a new lure companies use to fish for money.

Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by cocochanel on Thursday April 18, 2019 @07:53AM (#19690284)
Interesting, Japanese designer Oki Sato also thinks we should have more things that are stupid [1].

[1] https://youtu.be/c3TPbj2_Xjg?t=311

Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by closeparen on Thursday April 18, 2019 @12:04PM (#19692111)
People claiming to represent “the community” in local politics are definitely not acting in my interests, and are usually acting against them. A neighborhood run by a tech company sounds awesome compared to the status quo of governance by people who attend midday public hearings and sue developers as their retirement hobby.

An alternative model like this, at small scale, is a low-risk way to enrich the competitive landscape for places to live.

Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by thinkloop on Thursday April 18, 2019 @02:14AM (#19689100)
It's an annoying problem. Imagine how useful something like an alexa will be in 20 years. It might even become a handicap not to have one as a life/work aid. It would be unfortunate if the choice remained between full privacy invasion or massive utility. Then again we all already carry alexas in our pockets.
Re:Canada Group Sues Government over Google's Sidewalk Labs by bhhaskin on Thursday April 18, 2019 @12:02PM (#19692086)
Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain.