They don't lose money on every sale.

30% margins for Lyft, 20% margins for Uber (and 10% for uber eats.

Do those figures include refund fraud?

I've reported several fraudulent trips; trips where the driver accepts my fare and pretend he's actually picked me up and then ends the trip after some time. When I requested a refund, Uber happily credits my account, not my credit card that they billed.

Seems like some fancy accounting tricks that bump up numbers are being ignored too.

You have to press for the refund. Refunds usually cost money to issue, so they would avoid it unless necessary.

Crediting my account isn't a refund. I never requested a credit. So I stand by my assertion that it is fraud. The same goes for having to meticulously scour my trip logs for where the driver didn't end the ride when I exited the vehicle, or other such shenanigans.

I don't think GP's comment was challenging your view but was more like advice ("if you complain enough to support, you'll get a refund instead of a credit").

You should just ask for refund. I've the similar story, Uber suggested credit. But immediately issued refund once I declined credit and asked to refund money back to my credit card.

You can’t consider credits revenue until they are used. This is GAAP.

I don't know about Lyft but Uber says they lost money in Q4 2018, hopefully not in each sale but definitely in aggregate.

The money the got from customers for rides / food delivery didn’t cover the money they paid to the drivers / restaurants providing the service.

Edit: Ok, looking at the numbers more carefully they are still be positive after paying drivers / restaurants. But they lose money when the operating, marketing and administrative costs directly attributable to the sale are included.

I think the idea is those costs don’t scale linearly with the number of rides, so if you can increase the volume of rides which each have a small profit and hold the other operational costs constant or at least less than linear, you eventually get to profitability. That’s the theory anyway.

Sure, but right now they are losing money with every sale. Using their own "Core Platform Contribution Margin [which] demonstrates the margin that we generate after direct expenses. We believe that Core Platform Contribution Margin is a useful indicator of the economics of our Core Platform, as it does not include indirect unallocated research and development and general and administrative expenses (including expenses for ATG and Other Technology Programs)."

Including amortizatized customer acquisition costs?