I totally agree with you and don't think that you are an old man yelling at clouds. Then again maybe we both are.

I am a zealot about driving mindfully, actively and defensively. When I am driving, I am driving. I go the second the light turns green, I scan ahead constantly to change lanes a hundred yards before a slow car or obstacle. A lot of other folks do this, it is not unique or special. But... I think the vast majority of people do not drive this way and it drives me absolutely nuts.

How often do you see someone accelerating towards a car that is decellerating (usually in the far right lane) and then, at the very last minute, they slam on their brakes realizing the situation they are in. Why didn't that person notice the situation before it happened, since it happens all the time, and move over before getting stuck?

How often do you miss a turn lane signal because people in your line were either not paying attention or taking their sweet time to react?

It's not just the fault of devices, though that is a significant factor. I think phones exacerbate the real issue which is that, lately, people are not mindful about what they are doing (driving, walking, etc...)

This. I think you and I (and I venture to say many people reading HN) are a specific type of person. Where mundane difficulties such as dealing with a predictable 'bad driver' actually gives us ammo for optimizing our habits and achieving better results over time.

The reality is most people go about their days doing their business, not analyzing what they've done that day or thinking on how it can be improved the next. This is a phenomenon (to me) since it's considered a positive cultural trait (改善 Kaizen) in other cultures.

改善 literally only means improvement and it’s not a cultural trait. It’s just a word, and to many, a buzzword.

Japanese drivers are always glued to their phones. Almost every car has a built in TV and drivers watch it while driving and messaging someone on their phone. Bicyclists often hold an umbrella in one hand while playing a game with the other. Police aren’t making any effort to crack down on it and nobody is willing to accept that their own driving is dangerous and in need of improvement. The western idea of “kaizen” is sorely lacking here.

Its tempting to glance at the text and see if they're expecting you/changed plans. It's urgent because you need to make an exit decision soon depending on the answer. Its pointless to pull over because that takes longer than making a mistake about the exit.

Its a drug, the potential to optimize your plans on the fly is so attractive that even folks that swear they'd never text and drive, do it the moment it has utility?

> Its tempting to glance at the text and see if they're expecting you/changed plans.

My desire to avoid the inconvenience of some extra driving (if I drive all the way to the destination only to leave because plans changed) is not more valuable than other people's lives.

There's no good reason to be on your phone while your car is in motion — absolutely none.

But its an explanation of why people are tempted to do just that. You may miss the event entirely if delay is too large.

> You may miss the event entirely if delay is too large.

And yet... that's still a pretty minor inconvenience when weighed against the potential to cause people to die or otherwise be seriously injured. There's no valid justification for it.

Even though my car doesn't support Android Auto, I still have it set to auto-launch on my phone. If you attempt to close Auto with the auto-launch set up, it simply re-launches.

> see if they're expecting you/changed plans

This is impossible with Android Auto, you can't read or send texts (without voice, which doesn't work properly in my car). It auto-responds telling people to phone me if it is time-sensitive (like changed plans).

If they don't call back I'll arrive late, big whoop, at least I'm not arriving in a body bag. If they have a problem with me being late, they changed plans last-minute. None of which has happened to me.

> do it the moment it has utility?

It never has utility.

>see if they're expecting you/changed plans

Where is this culture where it's acceptable to change plans on a guest that is driving to your house while they are driving?

Welcome to being in your 20s in the USA.

E.g. you leave for the group lunch before they decided where its going to be (you were working at home and it'll be somewhere downtown).

Going to 'somebody's house' has all but disappeared from modern culture, for most of the population. Maybe at Christmas.

There are a million legit reasons a person would need to use their phone while driving a car.

But for some bizarre reason, most drivers find it unthinkable to simply pull over for 2 minutes to handle their business.

If I need to fiddle with a map or respond to a text, I pull over. It's really super ridiculously easy to do and takes almost no time at all.

This is one reason why I love driving a 4wd pickup. Many of the roads around here don't have proper shoulders, but I can confidently pull over in spots where someone in a small car would hesitate.

Are you allowed to pull over on the highway in the US. Certainly can't do that on a motorway in the UK.

Yes, into the shoulder

In most places yes, the places where it's not allowed have signs prohibiting it.

This is not true for everyone, but many of us have trained ourselves to check the phone when we’re bored, and to reply to messages as soon as we see them. When driving for 15 minutes, our mind can drift and it can feel like a good time to check the phone, even though it’s unsafe.

I feel the same way about people who stop in front of subway staircases and block people behind them while they check something on their phone.

Why is this a thing?

Why not check your phone while at a stop sign? Why not check your phone while on a straightaway with no cars in sight? Why not check your phone to make sure you're on the right route?

I get what you're saying but these are the thousands of little thoughts in the back of your mind that encourage you to use your phone in the car. "Just leave the phone in your pocket" has to defend itself against every one of these little pervasive thoughts. Why do you think the mobile tech companies are worth tens of billions? They got a drug better than any other.

> Why not check your phone while at a stop sign?

I attempted to answer that question recently.

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/ruminations-on-stoplights-and...

What I don’t get is what is so important that requires “checking” every 5 minutes? Are we all business executives now, executing million dollar deals? Or day trading stocks? What’s so urgent?

I run my phone in Do Not Disturb mode 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. No notifications. No texts. No calls. No E-mails. I’ll check these things at night sometime when I’m not doing other things like driving a 2000 pound steel death machine on the interstate.

I've gotta say out of everybody I know even my 80+ year old grandpa - your phone notifies you of the least. Idk if you're in a contest here but that's just now how most people's lives go. Most peoples lives are engrained with their phones and I think most of us are healthy enough to make it be a net positive. (Not implying anything you're doing is wrong!)

I'm not defending or justifying doing it - im simply explaining why it's such a common phenomenon. People are often in conversations all day long with others. Or engaged in online discussions like this. Life is filled with boring moments and phones alleviate us of that. That's why people do it.

Because it's dangerous!! Figure out where you're going before driving off! If you get lost PULL OVER! It's really not that difficult and it shows that you actually care about people in the world other than yourself.

I have an issue with most of the defenses of using a phone while driving, but are you saying we should not be able to use a dashboard mounted phone as a GPS unit? Should all dashboard mounted GPS units be illegal, or just phone as a GPS? The advice was literally to keep the phone in your pocket.

No. But if you need to change your directions, or search for something in the GPS, your eyes won't be on the road and you should pull over. If anything you're doing in your car is taking your focus away from operating a multi ton killing machine, then be an adult and stop it.

Having a dashboard mounted phone as a GPS unit is fine, interacting with it any way other than briefly looking at it is not.

People (and especially kids) don't know how to handle idle time anymore.

I did a fun experiment recently. I was sitting in a doctor's office waiting room with several other people, all on their phones of course. I wanted to see how long I could sit there without pulling out my phone. I made it about 5 minutes. Just sitting there, no magazine, nothing. It was excruciating.

My wife expects timely logistical updates.

Your wife's desire for timely updates comes second to the legal (and, hopefully, moral) requirement of not recklessly and needlessly endangering those around you while operating a motor vehicle.

"I will be hours late because I got into an accident attempting to text this to you."

If she can't wait 10 min for you to safely reply there is something seriously wrong with your marriage.

Before I start the car I sometimes send "share the location" on WhatApp to my gf.

iphone/imessage, turn-on find friends, leave phone in pocket, done. my wife knows where I am 24x7 (for better or worse lol)