News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by Pfhreak on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:37AM (#19582328)
Having worked in the industry they believe it's necessary. I got yoked into a mandated long weekend and was laughed out of the room when I demanded a retrospective. Long hours is a failure, we should know what failed so it doesn't happen again. Their response? That's just the way it is in games. Absolutely zero desire or acknowledgement that it should be different.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by vonseel on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:58AM (#19582512)
Long hours is a failure, we should know what failed so it doesn't happen again. Their response? That's just the way it is in games.

In my experience, that attitude is common and not limited to game developers or even programmers in general. American working culture tends to respect those who go above and beyond, or at least maintain the appearance of doing so.

Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by djsumdog on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:14AM (#19582684)
I've only worked at two places that were like this and they were both shit shops. I think people who stay at these places don't understand it isn't by any means normal.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by slothtrop on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:16AM (#19582705)
Sad that working free overtime is seen as a virtue
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by lovetocode on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:59AM (#19582529)
You hit the nail on the head!
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by lovetocode on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:41AM (#19582360)
It’s toxic culture at the leadership level. When my employer asks for some outrageous development on a compressed time schedule I speak my mind. Maybe that’s why most AAA games suck these days.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by Pfhreak on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:46AM (#19582406)
In my experience it was the ic level. Leadership would say, what's a reasonable timeline for feature x. The engineers would spend two hours arguing that estimates are bullshit, then give a trivially small (and obviously wrong) estimate.

Leadership would say, are you sure? Engineers would basically flip them the bird and say yes. Then inevitably be late.

I get it, estimating is inexact. But there's a clear difference between "I broke this down into little tasks, and I think we're looking at x" and "implement multiplayer? Four days."

Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by maxxxxx on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:14AM (#19582677)
That’s not my experience. When asked for an estimate you usually already know the politically correct number. I have never got away with giving the number I think will be realistic.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by mixmastamyk on Friday April 05, 2019 @11:40AM (#19583615)
If you give an incorrect estimate, you'll be the one to blame at the end of the project. Remember estimates aren't promises, so better to deal with hurt feelings at the start of the project.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by maxxxxx on Friday April 05, 2019 @11:47AM (#19583679)
The way it usually works is that I say it will take 12 months and the response is "we need it in 6". So I say "fine, we'll give it a go but I am not making any promises" and off we go.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by mixmastamyk on Friday April 05, 2019 @11:50AM (#19583718)
The scope must then be cut, or the project careens into Fantasyland. That happens at some places understood, a sign of incompetent management.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by maxxxxx on Friday April 05, 2019 @01:29PM (#19584972)
I think the game everybody is playing that it's easier to ask for more money when something is already half done than asking for the whole budget upfront. And you can also cut/adjust scope in the middle.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by ido on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:59AM (#19582526)
A good project manager will wrestle a more realistic estimate from their developers before forwarding it to leadership.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by gowld on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:11AM (#19582648)
A good PjM won't wrestle anything; they will measure.

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2007/10/26/evidence-based-sch...

Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by Pfhreak on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:07AM (#19582613)
If the engineers are obstinate in acting in bad faith, who consider the pm the enemy, there's only so much a pm can do.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by whatshisface on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:51AM (#19582448)
Why wouldn't they give a trivially large (and very safe) estimate? Telling someone you will be finished tomorrow puts the onus on you to explain why your estimate was wrong.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by Pfhreak on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:00AM (#19582543)
Great question. They have pet features. Features with long estimates are targets for being cut. Give a long estimate, you risk not being able to build your feature.

I once asked, how long to add analytics to your code? (I wrote a one line utility that could bundle up objects and fire them off for you.) The response was "three weeks per event". Guess which part of the code didn't have analytics.

Now, at some level this is leadership's fault. They own the culture, but many of the engineers I worked with in games were the least interested in being a part of a team I've ever seen.

Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by midnightclubbed on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:34AM (#19582908)
This and so much this.

To elaborate on your point, say a programmer and a designer brainstorm an amazing new jetpack feature for the game. They spend a day (when they should be working on less interesting but planned features) on a quick first pass and show it to their PM.

The PM asks how long it will take to complete, they say 3 weeks (2 days of UI/UX time to add the fuel bar, a week to tweak the feel and mechanic, 2 days of FX artist time, 2 days of artist time to make the rocket pack model). The PM says that the feature is unplanned and that is too long, so they say they can cut some corners because they really want the feature in and its more interesting than working on their planned tasks. The PM agrees because he wants the team to be creative and take control and pride over how great their game is.

In the end the feature stays in and takes 2 months of development time since it requires modifications to world collision geometry, each selectable player needs a differently modeled jetpack to fit their geometry, a jetpack upgrade system is added, loot box unlockable color customization gets introduced, bots need to be able to fly too and so pathing and behaviors need extensive modification, a tutorial needs adding, sound effects need designing and adding, QA has to do a pass of finding everywhere in the world that the jetpack can be used to get out-of-bounds and to avoid gameplay trigger volumes, and someone has to triage and fix all those issues. And I realized I probably vastly underestimated... do we slip, missing being part of this quarters revenue and cancelling our ad-campaign or have we just pushed into development hell?

Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by ryandrake on Friday April 05, 2019 @11:20AM (#19583394)
This is why grownup software companies have milestones like “requirements freeze” and “feature freeze”, and strong project management leadership who enforce these things. Adding or changing requirements mid-project (or mid-sprint, if that’s how you roll) is very often harmful to a software program’s success.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by gowld on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:12AM (#19582662)
If the people you hire refuse to build what you hired them to build, and you insist on paying them anyway, you've got a lost cause.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by philipov on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:53AM (#19582466)
Insecurity combined with spinelessness causes people to give the answer they think their superior wants. This is a response that is trained by managers using microaggression.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by matwood on Friday April 05, 2019 @12:32PM (#19584203)
I've seen people put low estimates on things so they would be able to start something knowing that once started it was likely that we would continue working on it until completion.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by Nasrudith on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:04AM (#19582582)
I think AAA scale in general leads to some of the "suckage" issues since the problems occur in all large productions. With the capital comes risk aversion and to recoup the costs they go more lowest common denominator in addition to coordination issues with large teams and scaling. Even less overtime intense efforts like live action movies show these flaws.

Now they certainly do have unique pathologies related to their "cheap" talent pool churn - the lack of experienced people leads to some shockingly bad mistakes reoccurring, and lack of attention to detail from passion often shows.

Later Civilizations (V and later) for instance often came out with some shoddy AI doing things like pathing algorithms clearly designed before they added the one military unitn one civilian unit per hex limit, spamming absurdly bad trade deals, or deciding the proper thing to do against a technologically advanced power who thanks to game mechanics gives research points for every technology they lack is embargo them over conquest of one militant city-state, making it even harder to catch up.

Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by gowld on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:10AM (#19582633)
And earlier Civilizations had game-breaking exploitable bugs. People have been pining for the mythical good old days since the age of Pliny.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by Nasrudith on Saturday April 06, 2019 @10:01PM (#19594314)
The issue isn't that they had flaws - it is that they had them despite the budget and man-hours involved showing 'they just didn't care' aspects.

Whereas the older ones did it with smaller teams and more constrained resources where seeking efficiency had some weird side effects - granted there were also plenty of 'shovelware' examples from the past.

Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by gowld on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:09AM (#19582621)
> Maybe that’s why most AAA games suck these days.

This comment shows lack of historical perspective.

All of these complaints have been hot topics since before the term "AAA game" was invented.

AAA games "suck" (if they do, which the customer base's wallets seem to to think so) because they have gotten too good at making money even against their customers' stated preferences, not because they are bad at anything.

Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by overgard on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:19AM (#19582736)
Popular and profitable isn’t always the same thing as good.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by krageon on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:46AM (#19582403)
If you can still compensate or halt it by speaking your mind, your leadership still has a long way to slide down the toxicity scale.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by lovetocode on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:51AM (#19582449)
You are right. And to be clear my current work environment is not toxic which is why I can do this as you said.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by collyw on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:56AM (#19582496)
Isn't there an element of supply and demand to it - lots of gamers become programmers and want to work as games devs. Databases on the other hand aren't cool, but businesses need them.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by pjc50 on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:08AM (#19582616)
The tech industry in general has a bit of a toxic machismo problem, but it seems to be far worse in games. Probably it's coupled to the wider culture there.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by UnpossibleJim on Friday April 05, 2019 @11:12AM (#19583324)
LOL, WTF do machismo and the tech industry have to do with each other? That seems a bit of a stretch to try to connect two disparate topics into a connected "issue". I get the whole problem with Rockstar Games (if that was where you were pointing - I can only assume), but that was a singular studio. As someone who works in the game industry, and has for almost 20 years, that is not representative of the vast majority of game studios. Meek is the work you are looking for, when it comes to game studio employees, at least on the west coast. And that falls in line for most of my acquaintances in the tech industry in general. The only ones who approach "toxic masculinity" (and even then... a hard stretch) are the sales guys.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by Pfhreak on Friday April 05, 2019 @04:26PM (#19586678)
I only spent ~3 years in the games industry on the west coast. I was surrounded by machismo and toxic masculinity from the engineers. It wasn't everyone, but it was definitely present to a non-trivial degree.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by whatshisface on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:42AM (#19582368)
If they're wrong in thinking that it's necessary, then anyone who comes in with an enlightened view will put them out of business and take over the market.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by jbattle on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:59AM (#19582538)
Game developers don't stay in business by being great places to work. They stay in business by staying afloat long enough to get one .. more .. game to market. I know Firaxis (makers of Civilization) has at least once laid off large parts of their development crew once the game is substantially complete.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by Pfhreak on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:50AM (#19582446)
Some shops are doing well and are crunch free. Not sure at the AAA level yet, but definitely at the big indie level.
Re:Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job by jtms on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:54AM (#19583128)
I’m glad to hear that seeing as “big indie” is where all the best gameplay innovation tends to come from. Many AAA titles are actually quite dull and repetitive affairs. They get wrapped in a super pretty and eye candy laden veneer so you don’t notice the underlying mechanics and gameplay are actually exactly the same as the previous 400 entries of whatever franchise