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Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by jimmy1 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:09PM (#19575338)
The most recent and obvious case in my mind: Covington Catholic Incident: almost every major mainstream media outlet ran with the narrative that the boys were harassing the Native Americans which was based solely on one video clip. No traditional investigative work was done. No one was interviewed (until the damage had been done). Nothing was fact checked. It was just one video, and boom: instant headlines.
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by ddgflorida on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:54PM (#19575832)
Excellent example- it will be interesting to see if they win their defamation lawsuits against CNN and the Washington Post.
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by beat on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:41PM (#19575706)
I disagree. Whether they were harassing is a matter of opinion. Whether there was a confrontation is a matter of fact, confirmed by the video and photos.

If you want to claim the "narrative", you need a link to an actual article with actual quotes. That's how fact-checking works, and your response is failing it badly.

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by ALittleLight on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:33PM (#19577763)
>Whether they were harassing is a matter of opinion

The entire event is on video. The boys are waiting for their bus. They are repeatedly insulted by a group of adult men who use racial and homophobic insults against the boys, who do not respond in kind but do talk with the adults harassing them. Into the fracas enters Phillips, who approaches the boys, and bangs a drum in the face of one boy. Most mainstream news outlets then smear the children as racists who surrounded and harassed Phillips without regard for the events on film.

If you want to describe this as a matter of different opinions, then I think you're basically in the camp of just disregarding reality and making up whatever is most pleasant to your perspective.

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by astine on Thursday April 04, 2019 @04:40PM (#19576884)
"If you want to claim the "narrative", you need a link to an actual article with actual quotes"

This is essentially what you're looking for: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/01/julie-irwi...

The short story is that when news about the incident first emerged, it was lacking the context about the Black Hebrew Nationalists antagonizing the boys. Early coverage made it sound like the boys sought out Mr Phillips to antagonize him. When it turned out that he had inserted himself into the situation, rightly or wrongly, it changes a lot. This doesn't necessarily exonerate the teenagers--you might still find stuff to criticize about their behavior--but it does provide a more sympathetic context, one that was missing with the initial press coverage.

So yes, whatever your final takeaway, the initial coverage was incomplete and people did form and share very strong opinions based on that incomplete coverage. Once more information came out, many people changed their minds while others stuck by their initial takes. Had the coverage been more complete before people starting making opinions, we might have avoided a lot of unnecessary kerfuffle over this.

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by jimmy1 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:06PM (#19575959)
> Whether they were harassing is a matter of opinion

But when you report it as a matter of fact in an editorializing headline, then it is a problem.

> Whether there was a confrontation is a matter of fact

This was not the narrative portrayed, in the slightest bit. Had this been the headline and narrative, I would have had no issue with it, either. The stories that day were "Boy in MAGA hat harasses Native Americans" period.

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by beat on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:22PM (#19576125)
See previous post. If you can't produce links and quotes, then that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by fundingshovel on Thursday April 04, 2019 @04:00PM (#19576485)
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by beat on Thursday April 04, 2019 @04:27PM (#19576755)
Firsthand quote from the VOX article...

“It was getting ugly, and I was thinking: ‘I’ve got to find myself an exit out of this situation and finish my song at the Lincoln Memorial,’” Phillips told the Washington Post in a separate interview. “I started going that way, and that guy in the hat stood in my way, and we were at an impasse. He just blocked my way and wouldn’t allow me to retreat.”

The article is explicit. It notes that Phillips initiated contact because they were harassing another group. But it also makes it clear, with quotes, that he believes they began harassing him instead.

Now, if you want to say Phillips is lying, you can do that, but unless you do that, at least one of your articles does not support your contention.

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by fundingshovel on Thursday April 04, 2019 @05:44PM (#19577402)
The article was modified, and the sections in your quote added. I should have used the internet archive originally.

See: https://web.archive.org/web/20190120030012/https://www.vox.c...

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by sedor0115 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:24PM (#19577706)
Greatly looking forward to how beat twists himself in knots to interpret this one as "factually accurate".
[dead]
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by fundingshovel on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:25PM (#19578474)
Neither your, nor my politics have absolutely nothing to do with the accuracy of your information, though if anything, we should hold our own side to a higher standard. There are so so many easily verifiable things to write about, that its beyond pointless to trash our credibility over things that are proven inaccurate with a little bit of fact checking. I mean, Phillips being the wrong age to have been in Vietnam, as he claimed to Vox, would have been trivial to detect with any fact checking at all, and should have raised flags about the rest of his narrative.

No one here is even trying to advance narrative high school boys are angels, with a bit a of digging it's pretty easy to find things that Covington Catholic does may well deserve the level of public shaming that this story got.

However in this case, the entire narrative has been pretty widely disputed, Caitlin Flanagan does it much more elegantly than I could.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/01/media-must...

As for the source, why not go to the original, like any responsible journalist should have, copy of the full video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwNyOD8FIQk

Feel free to tell me when you hear them chanting "Build a wall", I haven't heard it.

The first widely reported, and easily proven incorrect fact is that Nathan Phillips is a Vietnam Veteran, see fairly through coverage of that here:

https://www.businessinsider.com/native-elder-nathan-phillips...

So really you're asking me to believe the narrative of someone who is proven to be lying about his military service, with no corroborating video of his claims, which just seems a bit ludicrous.

edited: spelling

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by terryd on Thursday April 04, 2019 @10:42PM (#19579192)
Even after you have fallen victim to the very thing you are arguing isn't a problem - you still don't see it as a problem? It is a very big problem that these articles are being destructively modified. They are whipping up people that are already so freaked out that they think the President is both Hitler and a Russian agent, and people like you are left wondering what the big deal is when you look at the results of stealth edits.

   -- a young man wearing a self-assured smirk and a red “Make America Great Again”
   ++ a young man wearing a red “Make America Great Again” hat

   -- More video shows Phillips wiping away tears in reaction to the harassment.
   ++ More video shows Phillips wiping away tears after the incident.
You can be sure that a huge number of tweets and facebook posts, by politicians and journalists/pundits promoting the story, frequently found in the sidebar of articles like this - got memory holed as well.
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by sedor0115 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:22PM (#19578798)
Don't bother with the "you don't know my politics" shtick, your overly sensitive reaction leaves the writing all over the wall on that point. You wouldn't be so defensive if it didn't strike close to home.

This would be less silly if what you were pretending is so obscure and nuanced was not actually as plain as day.

I took your invitation to reread, and only needed to go as far as the second paragraph: "In some shots, the teens appear to be shouting “build that wall, build that wall.”"

This is false. Not an opinion, not a narrative, a plainly false statement.

My "contradictory sources with at least the same level of journalistic respectability" is any of the videos of the event themselves, is that a credible enough source for you? The full-length video was available at the time of the writing of this article and Vox did not make any effort to verify what they wrote against it.

They lied, period. This is not that difficult to understand. Do try to keep up.

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by passwordreset on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:22PM (#19579393)
I believe that you are making a mistake when you say "not an opinion" in your (parent) post.

The words "appear to be" in one of the above quotes precisely indicates that this is a statement of opinion, and not a statement of fact. When we say "the wall is blue", we are talking about the color of the wall factually. When we say "the wall appears blue", we are talking about how someone sees the wall, which is a subjective observance; the wall may appear to be a color other than blue to someone else with a different pair of eyes.

At least one word, "is", refers to things as a matter of fact. Other words like "appears", "seems", or the sub-phrase "I think", are indicators that we're probably talking about a statement of opinion. This may be a useful rule to follow when reading news stories. I think it seems relevant here. (SwIdt?)

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by smt88 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:54PM (#19578962)
Your argument would be more interesting to read if it didn't include personal attacks (which are against HN rules).
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by AimForTheBushes on Thursday April 04, 2019 @04:22PM (#19576694)
This is an annoying sentiment for a recent national news story.
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by ajvs on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:59PM (#19575887)
This has been debunked thoroughly. That guy went up to the kids and started beating his drum right in their faces to intimidate them and somehow the media painted the kids as the harasser.
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by beat on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:23PM (#19576137)
Was his intent to intimidate? Why do you say that? How is that a "fact"? Where did you even hear that story?

Geez, y'all don't understand fact checking at all.

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by ajvs on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:45PM (#19576360)
Does it matter what he says his intent was? He can paint whatever story he likes in interviews, but nobody would appreciate a random person going right in their face and beating a drum, especially a young kid. You can even see him flinching because of the proximity.

Not sure what you're talking about "hearing that story", the video evidence is clear as day.

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by rootusrootus on Thursday April 04, 2019 @05:13PM (#19577179)
[deleted unpopular opinion]
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by 1000units on Thursday April 04, 2019 @05:55PM (#19577490)
META:

I recommend against deleting unpopular comments. Editing in something like "Update: I disavow!" if you've changed your mind is harmless, but in general there's a benefit to treating public statements as a sort of permanent record.

This practice exposes people to potentially underappreciated viewpoints and allows others to track the development and popularity of ideas.

I have many poorly rated comments preserved here, but on balance I think people respect my personal commitment to the truth, however I see it. In the realm of public expression, it's honesty and integrity which matter most. Everybody is wrong sometimes; it's part of the process of discovering truth.

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by rootusrootus on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:14PM (#19577641)
You are 100% right, I should have left it there. I only rarely edit/delete my own comments, and almost always it is because I realize I have waded into a political argument I don't want to be part of.
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by 1000units on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:16PM (#19577653)
Fair enough! Cheers.
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by 1000units on Thursday April 04, 2019 @05:21PM (#19577249)
You assume the drummer was trying to go somewhere such that someone could block his path.

But he was exactly where he wanted, in this kid's face trying to provoke him. And the kid just smirked, earning great hatred and hostility from people who don't think there's any place for a smile in this cold, brutal world.

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by rootusrootus on Thursday April 04, 2019 @05:24PM (#19577273)
I assume the kid wanted the confrontation just as much, hence the smirk and refusal to make a hole for the guy to walk through. Even if it is exactly what the old man wanted, the kid is not blameless.
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by 1000units on Thursday April 04, 2019 @05:33PM (#19577337)
Again, you're assuming the kid had the option of yielding so that the drummer could "walk through." Watch the original video that includes the surrounding events.

The kid did have an option to yield: getting on his knees and begging for forgiveness for the crime of appearing at an anti-abortion demonstration as a white Catholic male. Then the drummer (who is a 'professional protestor', by the way) would have had a more dramatic story to sell.

Instead, he smirked.

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by 1000units on Thursday April 04, 2019 @04:25PM (#19576737)
Are you familiar with the story at all? You need to do more than "hear" about it from whomever you did. I watched a full recording of what happened, and the media coverage was absolutely ridiculously wrong. I hope the Covington kids win a defamation suit.
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by behindmyscreen on Thursday April 04, 2019 @05:26PM (#19577284)
The confrontation was between the kids and the black Israelites. The Native gentleman was trying to use chanting to interfere with the conflict.
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by cheez on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:17PM (#19577656)
If you watch the video, that kid with the long face was just standing there looking goofy because he was uncomfortable as the drummer walked right up to his face. There is really no way to misread that interaction. He's a teenager for god's sake and he was being harassed by ideologues.
Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by vokep on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:07PM (#19575965)
>Whether they were harassing is a matter of opinion

It really is not, further video evidence makes this a fact, not an opinion.

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by briandear on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:27PM (#19576176)
“Vietnam Vet” — that was published by the mainstream media. But the Native American wasn’t a Vietnam vet. He never left the US and, in fact, was AWOL twice. The media used “Vietnam vet” to elicit sympathy, but it wasn’t even factually accurate. The actual facts were ignored in order to promote a particular bias. “AWOL soldier” doesn’t have the same emotional value to the narrative as does “Vietnam combat vet.” The history of the Native American, including past protests and confrontations was highly relevant to the story but instead, the media focused on the the teenagers rather than the professional agitator as well as the hate-group the Black Israelites.[1]

The Covington story was “privileged, white teenage, racist Trump supporters got in a confrontation.” However the facts had to be massaged in order to sell that fiction was what happened. We all know that was the intent of the media and to suggest the reporting was either factual or objective is nonsensical. It’s delusional to suggest that the media treats Trump supporters objectively. Look, for example how the New York Times classifies Joe Biden’s repeated sexual harassment as “tactile politics,” while anyone affiliated with Trump gets no such delicacy in headlines.

It’s absurd to suggest that the Covington story was anything except the media attempting to make those kids look like evil puppy-killers. The vile, racist comments of the Black Israelites on the scene were ignored for the most part and instead media talking heads spent hours analyzing the alleged “smirk” of the white kid with the MAGA hat.

There is a narrative and any reasonably intelligent person can clearly see it.

[1] https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/...

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by will4274 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:06PM (#19578380)
> Whether they were harassing is a matter of opinion.

Perhaps. But the question of who approached who is a matter of fact. Initial reporting claimed the teenagers approached a group of Native Americans. The videos clarified that the Native Americans approached the teenagers.

Re:Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open sourc... by macspoofing on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:25PM (#19578480)
And why couldn't media conglomerates get the facts right?